Why are you a LL?

Seriously, why are you a LL?

Have you ever asked yourself that question?

I realize that at least part, if not all, is for money, but is that the only reason?

I see no other reason for doing it, and I am not sure that it is worth it. Let me explain a little, if I can. I found myself asking this very question yesterday. I guess I am still searching for my true purpose. One thing I realize about myself is that I can tend to do things in extremes. However, I find myself not doing that when it comes to rentals, so I have to ask myself why. I read on hear every day about tenant problems. It is hard to find good tenants, I had to evict, judge makes bad decisions, pres is creating new problems, tenant destroyed property, tenant not paying rent, had to send notice, have to train tenant, new anti LL laws are being made, I am being sued, I need asset protection, I need to worry about this and worry about that, and the list goes on and on. I realize the reason that I am moving slow in the rental business. For one, I am DIYing every single part of the business, and you can't do that and get anywhere fast. But, I think the biggest problem, and maybe related to the previously mentioned, is that I hate it. I think people should be responsible with their bills, but they're not. I think people should take care of the place like I do mine, but they don't. In general, I don't like people, partly because of this. So, every day I am doing what I hate and nothing of what I might enjoy, because this consumes ALL of my time. I take no vacations, not that I ever did, I take no time for enjoyment as it is constantly doing something work related, even in my sleep. I am thinking about how I'm going to feel about my life when the end, finally, has arrived. Why should I be dreading my life every day doing what I can't stand? Why shouldn't I be able to look back and say, "I am sure glad that I finally realized that I needed to do what I enjoy instead of what I hate." What would be the point in life if every day is miserable, because I'm doing what I don't enjoy. Is the money really that important? Is that the only reason why everyone is doing this, because it sure doesn't seem like they are happy? What will they think at the end of their lives looking back?

So, I ask again, why are you a LL?

Thank you for your time

6x6

I can tell you this: I sure wouldn't do it for free.

Money may not be the ONLY reason, but it definitely is the MAIN reason by a long shot. The whole idea of owning an investment is to make a profit in the short and/or long term. That means... money.

Are there other aspects that are enjoyable? Yeah, sure. But I wouldn't do this just for those reasons. If I wanted something hands-on that didn't pay, I'd take up a hobby like gardening.

Now, to answer the question behind the question....

"I am DIYing every single part of the business, and you can't do that and get anywhere fast. But, I think the biggest problem, and maybe related to the previously mentioned, is that I hate it."

I used to be in the EXACT SAME PLACE. I hated landlording. I wasn't making any money. Tenants were skipping out, not paying, and trashing the place. I thought about selling numerous times, even though it meant taking a loss.

Then things changed... they had to or I would've given up. I do give a lot of credit to good ideas and advice I picked up here at Mr. LL and also the convention, but just deciding that I was done with crap tenants was probably the biggest thing. So I made a list: what are the things I hate the most?

Top 3:

1) Cleaning up messes after tenant move outs.

2) Non-payment of rent.

3) Mowing lawns.

#1 and #3 I quickly hired out. It was such a weight off my back I started to get time to breathe and I could work on #2.

Refining my screening criteria, pre-screening, and adopting a zero-tolerance on late rent helped... a lot! Instead of making excuses for accepting poor tenants, I became laser-focused on finding the best of the best in the Class C world. They DO exist, and once I realized it was my job to FIND them... I started to find them. Good tenant who paid rent on time, all the time, without excuses. That doesn't mean every tenant I have is perfect, but it does mean my eviction rates dropped from 3-4 per year to 1-2 per year even as my unit count tripled... then quadrupled. I still file 1-2 evictions per year, but that's on 54 units, rather than in the past I was filing 4 evictions on 12 units.

It's night and day difference. Profits go up; headaches go down!

So my suggestion is to make your own "Top 3 things I hate", and then start finding ways to solve them. I have to say that the DIY thing will kill ya if you're not making any money. Guys like NE and Roy can put up with it because they make good money and are quasi-sadistic.... (just kidding, Gents!) But I never did enjoy mowing lawns and stepping in someone elses' dog's poop... so I hired it out. And I never did enjoy cleaning up other people's nasty messes, so I hired it out.

Bottom line: each of us only has so much physical, emotional, and mental energy to deal with "stuff". If you spend it all cleaning toilets and listening to 20-minute long "woe-is-me" stories ... you'll have no energy left over to improve your business and make profits.

I enjoy it thoroughly now because I have "hit my stride" and am making more in rentals than I am at my day job. I see my balance sheets grow year after year as debts get paid off and values rise. Heck, just the last 3 years were GOLD for anyone owning decent real estate. Maybe look back on that and find some inspiration. I'm betting your values have gone up at least 20-25%, and that's really good!

All the best!

I’ve never fit in with the crowd. I remember when I was in my mid teens in the early 90’s my dad telling me about classes he had to take at his factory job at a mega corporation. It was sexual harassment or something. I remember him saying that if he was working with a woman and he looked at her for longer than 20 seconds it could be counted as sexual harassement. I remember thinking how stupid that sounded.

This mega corporation has been falling down the slippery slope of wokeness ever since then. I remember thinking back then if he had to talk to a woman to do his work and had to keep looking away out of fear of allegations. It was nothing I wanted to deal with.

That planted the seed. Then when I got in the college and was working in the restaurant industry, I just saw so much nonsense in the professional atmosphere, nonsense and ridiculousness that had to do with dealing with coworkers that I had to get out.

I don’t do well with things that don’t make sense. Co-vid for example. No way would I have been an employee in an environment like that.

I don’t play well with others and I can’t stand a lot of what’s pushed in the professional world that has nothing to do with the real world. If I’m talking to somebody, I’m going to look at them.

So for me, it’s freedom to do what I want when I want. I don’t need big fancy cars, clothes or cruises or any of that b$. When I have the ability to say no, I already have all the freedom in the world.

Plus, I love taking a trashed old building and turning it into a beautiful property.

As a little girl, my favorite pretend play was princesses in their castles who needed rescuing. I played the part of the fairy godmother, though I don't remember thinking of myself as that. I also have always liked improving things, building things, creating things. Not woodworking so much, but things to do with our horses. Building pastures, repairing saddlery, repairing stalls. And I always loved plants and animals.

When newly married, I was looking into investments, wanted my husband and I to be comfortably well-off. I did finally convince my husband to invest in stocks, but couldn't get him to buy in to the idea of real estate. Something I didn't realize way back then was, the reason my husband was not about to get rental properties was he had this VERY closed-minded view that men do all of the physical work on a rental. He never got that idea from me, though I did, and still do go along with the idea of letting my husband lead. He's four years older than me, both of us are smart, ( he thinks he is smartER, LOL!), and he had a very good career going that pays well. I still needed to find my way, in terms of 'what am I going to do for a living?' I became a stay at home mom (SAHM) with a job in the background. Found out I was good at teaching, through being a teacher's aide.

The information that he expected HE would be doing all of the work came out clearly when I bought the first rental. He kept going on and on about how he wasn't going to do anything, and I kept thinking, 'Why would you; its my job, not yours?' Had I realized that was his big hang-up, I'd have bought rentals 30 years ago.

As I've mentioned, he has had a very good career. But, for my mental health, I needed to be doing something that is MY job, that I am successful at. Being a

(SAHM) has never been looked at as a respected career. And, I wanted something I could get all the credit for. Rentals gives me that.

Oh, and yeah, there is the monthly rents that are paying down the debt from buying, rebuilding, maintaining these homes. Plus price appreciation that can keep up with inflation. And, my siblings, cousins, all talk to me differently now that I'm more than 'just a mom.'

I like doing something one time, then collecting for that effort for many years.

I echo much of what NE wrote. It seems to me that backstabbing and undercutting is the only way to succeed / advance at the cubicle farm job. That to me is far, far worse than dealing with tenants and houses.

Making an improvement in my screening compounds my income for years to come…these are areas that I am most interested in. It is good to know how to do everything myself, it is not good to have to do everything myself.

I will mirror a few of the comments above.

Started out working when I was 15 in the construction trades. Okay I was a grunt laborer who carried stuff and dug holes.

As time went on I learned all that I could. Building places from the ground up. Then I moved into commercial contracting. Learned more there as well.

Then I moved into a maintenance position at a small factory. I learned some new stuff, but much less and most of what I learned I could not put to use in my world outside of work.

Moved to another factory. Learned more stuff. Some of which could be used outside work. Things like hydraulics, electronics, higher end electrical work.

But I was never happy there. The people were a pain. The bosses that came and went were a pain. Then the big man came in from out of state and said they were closing the plant.

I already had properties by then. I did not see the reason for moving. Family was tight knit and the rentals needed me.

So we decided that I would just do this full time. Scared the hell out of us at first. Then we realized we were able to make money, not deal with the typical factory mentality that exists here, enjoy life and have what I didn't understand until a couple years ago... freedom.

I enjoy the work. Obviously not cleaning toilets but making a place a home instead of just four walls. I have dealt with some bad tenants along the journey. I have lost sleep. I have lost money and I have lost my cool.

But those things are fewer and fewer in between now. I still learn all that I can, even if I won't be doing it myself. I have learned how to read people better.

It is after 11 here right now and I still have not gotten ready for work. Little bit under the weather. I didn't have to call the boss, check my sick days or worry about points. I am just sitting here and getting ready to head out for supplies.

Not making a fortune by any means, even for my area. But I buy what I want without worrying about the cost. My youngest went to a con last week but forgot to get cash from the credit union. I pawned off a few hundred bucks because I had it. Supposedly I am getting paid back today. No worries tho.

My house is paid for. Wife's car is new and paid for. I have a leased truck for now but will change that in a couple years. My few hobbies are covered. We have wants but no real needs.

But if you don't enjoy life you must make your own happiness.

I hope you aren't really at the point you are posting about and it's just a question. Some people (tenants or prospective tenants) are just not good.

My first rental property was a SFH in an "OK" neighborhood but not one that I would have lived in personally. I learned A LOT off that property. We never really had "good" tenants there now that I think about it.

The last ones paid their rent on time but left a complete mess when they left and gave absolutely no notice (I mean, they "mentioned" they were thinking about leaving in a few months but never gave notice other than "hey... we moved"... literally... in a text the day AFTER they left).

I looked at the property, took the garbage out and decided right then "I'm selling it AS IS/WHERE IS".. someone will want this.

I sold it in less than a month for cash. Walked away and felt so relieved. We own two others (before we sold this one) and I manage for many people.

We do our best on getting the right tenant for the right property and for the most part... I get it done. People are happy and things move on.

There are absolutely times I think "what the heck am I doing... this is horrible" but overall... I do like it.

I have a vacancy right now in one of my rentals. I want to change the vanity in the bathroom to upgrade it but everything else seems good at this point. I'm jacking the rent up about $150 and I'm getting ok bites on it from people looking. One guy called me the other day then started talking badly about it (saying "I went by the other day and saw it... there was a window AC on the front lawn... place looks bad like that".

This is when the tenant was moving out as I did see that last week. I didn't say anything to him other than "so are you just calling me to say you don't like the outside of the building because there was an air conditioner on the front lawn"? He said "yeah, I guess"...

I just laughed and said "ok thanks for your input" and hung up.

You can't take things too seriously with people. It's not worth it. My wife hears me on the phone and just says "I don't know how you keep going with these people (prospectives) and don't get all frustrated with them". I do sometimes... but just being on the phone and weeding them out is worth more than dealing with them as an actual tenant.

Yes, I do it for the money but I also do it for my "freedom". For the most part, I can choose days or times that I just don't want to work. Other days can and do "get out of hand"... that's normal though I think.

Busy, Just so you know not everyone thinks that being a stay at home mom is a lame worthless job.

My wife was one. My kids turned out pretty good considering who their father is. I am sure that if she had not been able to stay with them things would be a lot different in all our lives.

You had me until the part about the horses. Raised, trained and showed a lot of them in my youth. So much so that I considered it a non-paying job instead of a hobby.

6x6,

What you should do, in my opinion, is find the part of the housing business that works for your needs. I've known people over the years that were in different parts of the business that were very happy in their niche but would have been miserable in a different niche.

Let me give some examples:

A friend of mine, back in 1970, moved his family of himself, his wife and 3 kids to my city in California in a SCHOOL BUS and took a job at a car wash. They were allowed to park their bus in the back of the car wash and they did and all of them lived in the bus. Every 2 weeks, he got paid and instead of having to pay rent, he invested $100 in buying foreclosures, which at the time, could be had for $100 down with payments of about $100 a month (prices for these foreclosures were about 12-13K). We were near a large Air Force Base, so he only rented these places to service people for about $135 per month (I actually rented from him). Service people usually pay rent because if they don't you go to their company commander and tell and the non payer catches a load of grief. So that solved the non payment problem. After a while, he got others to do the maintenance and so on. Last I heard of him, he had 400+ houses and now these houses are worth about $1.2 million EACH . Rents have gone up as well. He moved his family out of the bus.He solved his problem by renting to service people.

Another 2 guys I knew started by doing fixers. They bought cheap, fixed the places then sold them. Likely did a 1031 exchange to avoid taxes. When I talked to them at length, they said this: "We now build only 2 houses per year" (these houses, at the time,in the 80's) sold for about 160-250K each. They told me each house took about 4 months to build, they made about 150K each per year doing it and they took 4 months a year off to have fun, go fishing, etc. They said the good thing for them was NO BOSSES, No schedule, No reporting to work for someone else, no complaints, etc. After a while, they had enough money in their retirement accounts to not need to work anymore. Now I suspect they only do more places if they want to but after you have enough to live the rest of your life without running out and leave something for your family, why work?

One more story: When I was young, in my early 20's, I didn't have a lot of money but I knew I wanted to do something where I had no boss or the things that go with a regular job. I started a company doing off jobs/handyman type work and quickly built that little company into a bigger company. We made more money in one day on average than the net income from several class C type rentals pay these days in a month (I've got several class C type rentals right now that don't return $250 a month each after expenses).

So, there are lots of different ways to make plenty in the housing business. Think of the things you like and don't like and work on the things you like.

Simple. I love real estate. I love owning it. When I was about 5-6, I was reading The Good Earth by Pearl Buck and in it the book said that all wealth comes from owning land. I took that to heart.

Several members of my family do real estate.

Tenants, unfortunately, are the only way I can afford to own nice real estate, so I deal with them the best I can. Careful screening helps a lot. I keep enough cash in reserve so I can afford to have a house sit empty for as long as it takes to find a good tenant.

The tax laws favor businesses and property owners.

We could not think of a single other source of income for retirement that would work for us long-term.

I love the freedom it gives me.

Only two things you need to know about real estate investing is you can do it with a H.S. diploma and don't go broke.

I need to hear this topic discussed today. I was so depressed yesterday I almost cried. Today is different, I finally went in and looked at our unit. It's not good but not as bad as I had imagined. Just my attitude changed!

We actually went in and my 79 year old DH did the outside and I cleaned the inside of 5 windows (75, me). We were totally pooped after but we were proud.

I've not worked in corporate America for nearly 40 years. I detested it and that was the major reason I started my accounting firm back in the mid 80's. So I already had a business prior to going into real estate. I got into real estate mainly to create a retirement income. I believe having experience in another business helped me.

In a pinch, I'll clean and do certain maintenance tasks but I mostly hire that out. Recurring stuff like grass cutting, snow removal, bi-weekly rooming house cleaning and etc. has long been hired out. It simply wouldn't get done if I had to do it, not to mention that would take the fun of this. Although my accounting practice is basically part-time beyond tax season, it still requires an effort and it's difficult to switch from the desk to maintenance man. I'll only do it in a pinch and then only the simplest of tasks and when doing them is not time sensitive. I hire anything that's time sensitive that needs to be done right away. I don't like the stress and pressure of fixing something immediately and having to worry whether I did it correctly. Also, it will take me double the time versus someone who does this everyday. I have plumbers, electricians and HVAC people that I can call on. Where I'm lacking is a reliable handyman.

Fortunately, I have few issues with my tenants. For the most part, I have decent tenants. My main complaint revolves around weeding through the mass to fill vacancies. That's the most frustrating thing I face.

Keeping books and handling the admin isn't an issue although I'm considering delegating some of this at some point. As it stands, I deal with this along with client work while at the desk. I delegate nothing until I've developed a system that I myself use first otherwise, it's an abdication and the task will surely boomerang back to me.

A long time ago, we always talked about ll'ing, but had nowhere near the assets to take the plunge. So we focused on other things: pursue advanced education, get stable careers, find a place where we were willing to geographically tie ourselves to, pay off our debt, and start our family.

During this period of time, DH's employer had a retirement account for him, and he would get a quarterly statement from them. And it would shed money like gangbusters, and there was nothing we could do to preserve or enhance its value. It was very risky to think that we would be entrusting our futures to something that was so uncontroll-able.

Eventually, when we were finally stable, we found a 480 sf 1/1 that was so awful you could smell it from the street. A burned-out ll had gotten tired of it and was looking to offload it onto someone else. (I'm not sure what else he expected to happen to it after renting it to a party-of-six, with one of them being a druggie boyfriend.) I didn't even pay attention to it during walkthrough, because there was no way DH would be interested in buying such a terrible house. But it was $7k. In hindsight, we totally overpaid. But-- it was the entrance fee to being a landlord. We closed at Easter, and DH and his friend did a total renovation. They were super-proud of themselves for being able to salvage such an awful house. And it gave them the confidence to salvage a little 2/1 for $4k, and put up our former primary residence for rent and thereby add a 3/2/2 to our rentals, and I had to cash out my unvested retirement from my former employer and that went to a little 2/1.5 bank foreclosure for $15k, and... and... and...

Apart from the money, which helps us grow, and supports that which we already have, I really like being able to salvage houses from the bulldozer and give people a clean/safe/functional place to live their lives. That makes me happy. It also makes me sad when those places get turned back to me in less-than-ideal condition, because it tells me the people who lived there didn't value the house or the opportunity as much as I did. But that's the side effect of doing business in my specific market; if I was in a more traditional market, there's no way I would be doing business with the people I do business with.

I like the control. I like that my houses make money for me when I'm focusing on my family. I like having a project to take up my energy and attention as I work on doing the next thing. Ultimately, these houses are my kids' college tuitions, and our retirements. The baby who was in a stroller while we renovated our first rental is now in high school.

I love being able to do this. I love the impact that it has on my community. I love the feeling of satisfaction when I get one more house on its feet and bringing in a paycheck. I love walking through a sad, neglected house and trying to visualize what direction it wants to be taken.

I get frustrated when I'm given a setback. Someone pulls an outlet out of the wall and then tries to hide it by putting an electrical box and an outlet and an outlet cover over it--- except the wires are still shoved inside the wall and not actually connected to anything. (Oh, I was so mad.) Someone brings in roaches. Someone's 400 lbs and damages my floor, my bathroom, my whatever. Someone's kid throws a shoe and shatters the mirrored closet door. A 4yo hot water heater develops a pinhole leak and needs to be replaced. Someone has an unrealistic expectation of how they can dress or live when it's 10* outside, or when it's 110* outside, but it's my fault that the heat or the air can't keep up. "2 weeks out" with the electrician turns into "seven months out."

When I finally set down and started in RE in a serious way it was because I was middle aged, working in a corporation, in a high stress and high risk environment, and I knew I couldn't take doing that until retirement age of 67. I also knew through my studies, that most super wealthy families in nearly every country in the world achieved their wealth through RE. I had training in construction from my youth and enjoyed the remodeling/repair aspect and had 2 young men I was raising that needed to learn what a good days labor was like. My dad had rentals so I had some concept of what was required.

(1) Passive income and appreciation

(2) Want to control my future finance and rely on W2 or stock market

I like to pudder . There is a sense of accomplishment with solving a problem. I can't sit still on the beach reading a book ... I need to move and solve problems.

It's all about money and control of our future.

Every month I look at the cash flow and the equity paydown that our renters pay for us and it's hard for me to think about investing in something else.

It also compliments our 401ks.

It's all about money and control of our future.

Every month I look at the cash flow and the equity paydown that our renters pay for us and it's hard for me to think about investing in something else.

It also compliments our 401ks.

To supplement my retirement income.

My plan has always been to gradually gain equity / profit until I could eventually have 2-3 places FREE & CLEAR for retirement income.

I'm working on the renovation on that free & clear 2-unit property now. Plus the studio attached to my home.

I'm small, but I've (almost) achieved my goal - and have had a lot of different learning opportunities (experiences) along the way.

My thinking at first was: there are more people born every day who need housing & there is no more land being made. So, it seems like a logical, sound, long-term investment. Of course, that was assuming I would always have residents who paid - and I "mostly" have.

I also knew a couple people who had rentals & told me how good they were.

I've been in the same place - asking WHY do I DO this?! Mostly when I had the rooming house. That was the best income, but too much stress.

Try something different - you don't know unless you try.

I've come full circle back to better, SFH where I started and I initially wanted.

Also, it is something I can control vs the stock market& other investments.

I also like providing a nice home for people "on their way up" in life - I guess it's a subconscious way of helping goos people - those who are trying to help themselves.

Short answer, it's all about the money for us.

We became landlords more or less accidentally when we bought a big property that had an old stable the previous owner had turned into two apartments. The income from those apartments eventually paid the mortgage on the whole place, although we had to renovate both apartments (and the main house we lived in) from top to bottom to upgrade from the dirtbag tenants who were there at the beginning to the solid, stable people we had at the end. I was relieved when we paid off that place and didn't have to rent the apartments any more.

Now we are LLs again, having bought another huge place that we've divided into two units. We rent the top floor to our daughter and just finished turning the bottom floor into an apartment that is rented to a non-family tenant.