Our two children are done with college and gainfully employed, so I thought it time to write a new will. We are both 60 years old.

Do you think I should hire an attorney to help us write a will, or should I DIY? I do my own bookkeeping and taxes, so I thought a will should be straight forward. I thought once my wife and I pass, everything would be divided equally between my two kids. They get along well, are both frugal and serious savers, so I'm not too concerned a substantial inheritance will cause them problems.

I've heard in some states a trust is advantageous, but in NJ, the probate process is pretty easy, so I think just a will should be fine.

Thanks Oregon Woodsmoke, that's something I hadn't considered, though I could imagine, as you said that: "Even one word wrongly used can make a will invalid or open to interpretation"

People get weird when there's money involved. I've seen otherwise cordial family members stop speaking to each other over estates far smaller that yours will be. In addition, you would want a Will to say what happens if one or more of your heirs pre-deceases you and your wife. A good attorney will be familiar with all the ins and outs we normally do not think of.

BillW, I've been wanting to do the same. I also do my own taxes, bookkeeping, etc., but know that there is so much involved in setting up one's estate correctly. As Sid mentioned families get really weird when it comes to money especially inheritances.

I recently bought the following book so I could have an idea how I wanted our estate set up. It has great examples which supports Sid's ideas of how weird people act when it comes to their inheritance. The book is really good and I now have a better understanding of what I want our trusts and wills to be so that I can have the best conversations with the attorney who will be setting them up.

I DIY quite a lot, but I like to think I know when I need to call in a professional.

This is one of those - I would (will) definitely hire an estate planner Lawyer.

We had our regular RE attorney draw up a will; frankly we were unhappy with the results.

Hire the attorney and have the peace of mind that you didn't leave them a problem to deal with you didn't think about

Thanks Sid, I too have seen “otherwise cordial family members stop speaking to each other over estates”. It’s sad to see siblings get gifted their parent's life work, only to have that gift drive a wedge between them, which is the last thing parents want. You've helped me realize the importance of getting this right, enlisting the help of someone with experience and maybe discussing this with our children while we can.

I read you post in September of last year and that’s good advice, to “make sure you get someone who does trusts [and wills] as a regular course of action” Also, a good tip to: “don't transfer title before death as that will trigger not only a gift tax, but also the stepped up basis for inherited property will be lost”

Oh, and “now it's time to put the bow on the package” put a smile on my face. Thanks.

Gene, I’m looking forward to reading the book. The first review of the book on amazon is titled: “You Really Don't Know Your Children - Until They Divide Their Inheritance” :-) Thanks!

Kim, that is very interesting. I made a note to bring that up with the attorney. Thanks!

Thank you DJ. One more vote to hire this out.

Thanks for sharing that, WMH. Touches on what Sid was quoted saying

Thank you Eddie. One more vote to hire this out.

BillW,

This is too important to not use an GOOD atty.

LegalShield gives you a free will, etc with membership. An atty advised you over the phone. Then take it to another atty for a second opinion.

A friend just spent 8 years of family stress and MANY MANY THOUSAND$$$ on atty fees to get her share of a multimillionaire dollar estate where the wording was vague. Should have been simple - Mom and Dad built a business to be shared with the 3 kids. ONE heir had a really aggressive atty and kicked out the other heirs.

The judge ruled FOR the vagueness and she lost her inheritance.

Worst than that, the family was torn apart.

My tip: our will stated the children could not get any more than basic support and college expenses thru a trusteee until age 35. I've bought too many homes from deadbeat kids who inherited a house and dumped it for drug money.

Also consider current and future 2nd spouses and divorces. Another friend and her family lost the generational family farm because Dad remarried, died a year later so the new wife got it all, then sold it, gave the money to HER kids. Legacy gone.

PS Lots of stories about big name celebrities whose fortunes were squandered with legal fees by heir's lawsuits.

I think it was Frank Sinatra's will stated Anyone who challenges this will will be excluded from the will.

Also, My will lists THE RED FOLDER IN MY DESK. It's a written detailed list of assets and odd things and who gets them.

Another, my college roommate was part of a family that owned a car dealership. In the divorce his wife's atty claimed his share of the family business. He had to sell his rentals to pay her off to keep his share of the biz.

As Dave Ramsay says divorce is a business transaction between 2 attys, NOT between toe people who used to love each other, might still be friendly, and their children.

Well there are templates you can fill out either way you go. For some people, having to do a short eight page document scares them. My land trust agreement is over 33 pages, but it isn't that hard for you to outline beneficiaries and successor beneficiaries.

Unfortunately I am already aware that when my father passes there will be trouble. He made me executor of his will, My sister and her deadbeat husband have already said they will fight it all.

I told my father to just give it all to them. I don't talk to them anyway and no sense in wasting my time fighting it.

I thought he would make some estate changes but alas it is still the same.

I would not see my kids fighting over anything before. But then the oldest got married. The new hubby is horrible with money and complains that his parents owe him this and that.

There was a gentleman at the last convention that said his goal was to spend it all before he died. I only know him as Mike. Far wealthier and more knowledgeable than me.

Thanks Jim, I have read in NJ things like: “the Uniform Probate Code in New Jersey means that for all but the largest and most complicated estates it might be more trouble than it's worth” but Im going to see what the attorney has to say.

GKARL, I do have rental properties, so I’m guessing their might be some complexity and thinking about the value of the assets and the importance of doing this right for my children, it seems the legal fees may be worth it.

BRAD, as I’ve alluded to above, I’m sold on working with an attorney experienced in these matters. As you said “Worse than that, the family was torn apart” and that is what I’m trying to avoid at all costs. Maybe I should be spending more time with the “die with zero” book :-) Like you, I’ve seen first hand how generous giving can drive a wedge between people who use to like each other.

Tell me though, should I bring my 23 and 25 year old children into this conversation?

Some would say absolutely not, never talk to your children about your money.

Others would say absolutely DO, you've got to teach them about this just as you do everything else.

I lean very much in that direction because family businesses fail when the business passes to family who is either not interested or worse ignorant about the business. And rentals are a business.

They are a tad young though so really at this stage it depends on them and their personalities, I think. Some people in their twenties are very responsible. Some are not yet - and some might never be. But they certainly won't be if they are not taught about it.

Just a few tips - Use a highly recommended Estate attorney. No DIY for this. Be specific about identifying what each child gets. Splitting equal sounds good but how do you split a house or split land or a business? Appraising and selling is expensive. Talk to the children as to what they want and how they would handle you or your wife's death?

What if both you and your wife passed at once?

Think about how your children will address care giving for you or your wife if needed.

As others have said you may have great children but their spouses could be a problem.

Bill, I'm not pushing DIY per se as I think folks have to do what they're comfortable with. I'm a CPA with some familiarity in estates and etc. and my situation is boilerplate and not worth paying someone $ 2500 who's basically going to spend a few moments adding my name to documents already on the shelf. I also know how I want to handle things which I'd have to sort out and bring to the lawyer anyway.

More...

Include an escalation clause to match the govt's max allowable to inherit. It used to change every year.

My Dad signed a paper and died a few hours later. That paper saved his estate $250,000 in taxes by setting up a Testamentary Trust. Mom got the max allowed by law and the balance went into a trust, with her as trustee.

Wifey's input: think 30 years into the future. Things change, people change, God forbid your child dies...then what.

Our will is pretty basic - All assets professionally appraised. If someone is not comfortable with the appraised value they can request a second appraisal and average the 2.

Value is divided by 3 (children). If one heir chooses not to hold 1/3 share of the value the other siblings have first right of refusal to buy them out at 8% interest over time.

Your 20somthings's lives will be very different 20 years from now. Grandkids, ex-wives, someone passed...

Another...

Require your young adults to sign pre-nups before marrying. Like SID said, money changes people.

It's not YOUR child that might cause trouble, it's the spouses, ex-girlfriends, spouse's relatives...

Dave Ramsay highly recommends when there is the possibility of large amounts, even in the future.

Thanks Small potatoes, I am leaning towards setting up a trust as I do have a property out of state.

Thanks Ray-N-Pa, I’ll talk to the attorney about the land trust.

Yeah Zero, that sounds like a pretty good way to go, to end with zero (no pun intended) :-)

WMH, that reminds me that my wife and daughter bust my chops for explaining the birds and the bees to my daughter in first grade ( I thought it was forth grade). My daughter went into school and explained to the other children what their parents did to make a baby. They responded by saying “maybe your parents do that but ours don’t”. Maybe I explained a little too soon, but I am a believer in sharing the good and bad that goes on in our lives. I figure one day they’ll go through it themselves.

I too have seen the spouse involvement heat things up. Makes me think I need to find a really good attorney.

Thanks PG. Great tips! Yes, how do you split a house? Again, you remind me, I need to find someone experienced in this. And I’m looking forward to reading the book that Gene recommended.

Well GKARL, you make me think I could get smart enough to handle this myself. Maybe this is analogous to paying someone 1% to manage your money, when you’d be better off just keeping it simple and investing in a stock index. Thank you!

Bill, I absolutely think you should pay a lawyer. There are so many variables, including the ones none of us can think of. And changing laws and taxable values. There is information in this thread that is perhaps not technically wrong but is in practice not applicable for most of us here. (regarding gifting). If someone charges you $2500 for basic wills with a simple trust, they are ripping you off ... big time.

Not sure where you are located but they practice in New Jersey so possibly try

Joseph A. Bellinghieri, Esquire

MacElree Harvey, Ltd

17 West Miner Street |

West Chester, PA 19382

Direct: (610) 840-0239 Fax: 610 429 4486

JBellinghieri@macelree.com

macelree.com

This is for everyone. Even if you hire an Estate/Probate Lawyer to set up a new Family Living Trust and Will, it does not matter because some "DUMB ENTITLED STUPID KIDS" will remove their share of your Trust and put in into their name. Then if they get divorced, the "X" will get half and your grand children will never see dime one!

In my case my Parents Family Trust will stay alive until their youngest grand child dies. Then My Family Trust will stay alive until my youngest child dies. And my kids trust will stay alive until their youngest grand child dies.

So lets say one of my parents properties in trust burns down. That property is not owned by me or anyone except their trust. Same is with my holdings. Meaning this is another form of asset protection.

One more option is to find a real estate smart financial planner who has a preferred lawyer and cpa.

All three need to have input into your trust.

The lawyer can make sense of the legal wording.

The accountant can make sure your numbers are ok.

One more thing, and this is free... yet could be "costly".

When we made out our Will/Estate Plan (yes, we did a revocable trust, POAs, etc) we notified everyone named specifically in it of precisely what we said. This includes:

Our heirs

Our executors, backup executors

Our church

And so forth. We also sat down with our kids and had a "reading of the Will", just like they would expect in an attorney's office someday.

Why?

Because this way any oddities and questions can be taken care of now, before it's too late. The proverbial bus is always ready to clobber us, so we don't know if we have today only or 10,000 tomorrows. The time to put out the information is now while everyone is alive and healthy. It gives people time to process and digest, while also minimizing stress.

Why did I say it's costly? Because it "cost" me a bit to be so open and frank with everyone regarding intimate details of my life. If also forced me to confront my own death, because I was speaking the words that some day will be spoken by my executor.

It wasn't the easiest thing I've ever done, but I'm glad I did it. Best wishes as you love your family well by providing peace and clarity regarding your wishes.

Thanks BRAD for sharing how you do it. I guess things like “all assets professionally appraised” are included in the will. And thank your wife for the good input of thinking into the future. I tend to think in the here and now and not 30 years from now. Yes, things will be different then. My daughter is getting married in July, but I don’t think I could bring myself to suggest a prenup but I'm gona sleep on it.

Nicole, thanks for the input. True that we are familiar with our own situations, but is doesn't necessarily apply to others. West Chester is 1-1/2 hours from me, so a bit far, but I’ll give Joseph a call and see what he says. Thanks again.

Robert, that is interesting stuff about the Trusts. Kinda ties into BRAD suggesting the prenup.

Yeah, MMIT, I was thinking that you’d need a financial guy in this too. Great advice! Thank you.

That is good Sid, to run it by everyone. I can see the cost, as in some tears may flow. Thank you much for sharing that!

Bill. Please read the Google reviews on Atty Joseph before you make a decision.

Thanks W. I just spoke with an attorney and he suggested something similar. Thanks for the heads up on that.

We're going through this process right now. With property, a will isn't enough. You need a TRUST that the properties are transferred into at death. That gives your beneficiaries IMMEDIATE legal control over the properties. Can you imagine if you left them in a will and it took months to get through probate? Who would have the legal right to collect rents, authorize and pay for repairs, etc?

Thanks Robin, some good points, well taken on the rentals, probate and trust. As you can see from what I wrote, Revocable living trusts were part of the plan. Interesting that you got quoted about the same amount as I did (it was actually: "approximately $3,500 to $4000")

Thanks goes to both of you.

We still have nothing like this, just a will.

Robin, New Jersey and Pennsylvania probate is easy. His heirs will take the will to the court house and the executor is appointed. The executor then has the ability to act on Bill's behalf collecting the rents, repairs, leasing, selling the property, etc. I realize some states make "probate" a lengthy time consuming, expensive, process but not all. Not saying the trust isn't a good idea but the reason I see so often given doesn't pertain to every state.

Nicole, the reason I was doing the trust is because of the CA property. I agree with you that NJ probate is easy, from what I've read. Joe thought, if we passed without it in a trust, our kids would need to take a trip to CA to go through probate. And he thought if we have a trust for the CA properties, we might as well put our NJ properties in the trust along with some of our other assets.

Makes me think, I wish we could just sell the CA property, but because of family dynamics, we won’t.

Bill if have a snail mail address, I can send you the templates that I have from a paper course on land trust specific to California. It is rather old school and even before y2K.

I can burn you a copy if you want it.

That said, you can spent lots on asset protection. Attorney Jeff Watson presented about five years ago to our apartment association and he was wanting about $20,000 back then!