Got a bill for a service call a couple weeks ago. Fuel tank ran out. HVAC company dumped in 20 gallons and bled the lines, restarted the furnace. $395. I’m not a rocket scientist, but I know what it takes to turn a 10 mm bleeder nut on a blower motor and then turn it back closed to get the motor running. So I think $395 is quite hefty of a bill. Granted, this will be back charged to the tenant, but if I was in the area, I would’ve done it.

Oil and propane companies will (notoriously) rake ya

I think if you can do a high value task like that, you should, especially if it's something you like doing. Not everyone can.

I was hiring out everything at one point, but now I do a lot of it myself. I enjoy the work and youtube can explain how to do anything. If I hire someone, I still need to arrange for letting this person in and sometimes that is me, so I might as well fix it myself, if I'm able.

We need to have the right systems in place to reduce frequency of these issues.

While it seems high, in my area HVAC techs are becoming the new doctors. No one wants to go into trades anymore so their are fewer & fewer companies to cover all the properties.

6x6, that’s how I look at it. I have one house I redid a bathroom in 17-18 years ago now. Still going strong. Even though I labored for free way back then, I’m still getting paid for that job today. I had a skid steer operator spread gravel on that same job at that time, he’s not getting paid from that job anymore. Same goes for whatever other work I do on projects. If I labor for free on a window change out, I get paid in rent for years and years. To me it’s backwards thinking to hire everything out on rentals. (That’s just me and I mean no offense to those who do.)

If I Cashflow $300 a month on a unit and pay to repaint it for $2,000 like some landlords here claim to do at each turnover, I might as well just sell them.

NE,

On any place where I have an oil furnace, I make sure the tenant knows that they are responsible for that repair bill if they run the tank dry.

NE, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you DIY repairs. But pay yourself top dollar for the repairs. Avoid the unpaid maintenance job so that you can collect rent.

6x6, my husband often says what you just did: even if it takes him a MONTH to paint a unit, for example - and it won't - a painter will charge upwards of two-three months rent these days. And he likes problem solving, and he likes to work with his hands.

I do most of my own work. It's what I do.

That being said there are times when it makes more sense to hire it out.

I can roof, but not fast enough to compete with the crew I hire. Plus I am not built for it any more.

Finishing up an apartment now. I painted it all. Did some other stuff as well. Saved a lot on labor costs, especially since I can't find people to jump on jobs asap.

I did hire out the front door replacement because I got a quote and the last tenant is paying for it. I kept doing my thing while he did his.

Recent Southpark episode portrays contractors as the new doctors and lawyers.

I have to concur with my pal Sisco's advice: it's fine if you want to DIY, but are you PAYING YOURSELF for that repair? If not... and I mean physically moving money from your business account to your personal account, then you "savings" are disappearing into the ether. What's more, when you go to sell your property in the future, the Buyer will take one look at that and realize your maintenance costs are too low, and they will discount their price paid accordingly. If they have a brain, that is. (*wink)

A few more thoughts:

1) Not ever repair is going to save you $400 for 10 minutes of work. I would guess this is an anomaly.

2) You won't always know what the problem is. I tried "fixing" a water heater once, and after tinkering around with it for 3 hours and busting my knuckles trying to change a thermocouple (only a $10 part, right?)... I found out that on that specific year and model of Whirlpool those were reverse threaded, so the one I bought didn't work. $80 service call to my plumber and he got 'er done in 30 minutes.

3) You won't always be around to do the job. If you're sick or on vacation or working on another job site ... I guess the tenant just has to wait for you to get freed up / healthy if you don't have a service provider lined up who puts you at the front of his list.

4) Time and focus lost. This is the biggie. Even if you don't accept 1 - 3, pay attention to this. Let me explain....

I used to pride myself in DIYing almost everything at my rentals except for roofs, furnaces, and complex plumbing. I twisted the wrench under kitchen sinks... I soldered the joints for new supply lines... I painted the walls... I cleaned out the fridge and de-iced it... I mowed the yards... I laid the Allure vinyl plank. I ran myself ragged caring for 12 units. 3 am work to repair a floor at a vacancy. Weekends always filled with little "this 'n that" jobs.

Today I have 54 units and more time and money than ever in my pockets. Vacancy rates plummeted from 15% or more to just 3%. But more than anything, I had time and vision to grow the empire.

The king doesn't clean the privy. Nothing wrong with cleaning the privy; it's honest work and has to be done. But someone also has to expand, defend, and rule the realm. Can't do that when you're caulking the tub.

Last thought: it's your business. Do whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. But from a purely profit-driven viewpoint, which appears the be your main argument here NE.... there's no comparison. DIY limits profits to whatever you can scrape off the floor. Taking the "manager" / CEO role multiplies that x 100. No contest. Can't be argued against logically.

There's a reason why Warren Buffet spends his days reading and researching companies instead of installing a toilet in Berkshire Hathaway.

P.S. If your HVAC guy is making $395/hour for bleeding lines, you should sell all your rentals and go into HVAC!

Guess I lied about "last thought" above. Hee, hee...

In all seriousness, NE, I get it. It pained me at first to write those "big" checks to service providers. All that money going out the door. I look at my expense line items at tax time and think... "Dang, if I only I could capture all that myself." I paid my handyman $15,000 in labor costs only last year. FIFTEEN THOUSAND $$$! He also turned over 5 units for me averaging about 1-2 days per turn and kept me free to do other stuff on 52 weekends and 365 evenings.

But here's the thing: I can't do all those things. I'm only one person and my knowledge and skill set are limited.

If we take DIY for granted, we should all be fixing our own cars, repairing our own houses, maintaining our own computers/networks, and doing a host of other tasks. Who has the time, knowledge, and expertise to do all that?

The modern economy is built on specialization. 6,000 years of recorded human history everyone did everything for themselves: the ultimate DIY economy. 95% of people also lived in abject poverty trying to keep every penny for themselves.

Only in the past 500 or so years did people really figure out how to leverage talent and expertise on a national and finally a global scale. The industrial revolution resulted and now the information age. Wealth has exploded and everyone has benefitted.

Again, do what makes you happy! No fuss, no foul. But from a strictly dollars in your pocket, results-only argument, the winner is clear: be the guy who optimizes his value rather than tries to hoard every penny generates far more income and builds more wealth. I'm sure there are SOME tasks you hire out or at least get helpers for, which tells me you know that at some point the value of someone elses' labor multiplies the value of the money you pay them; otherwise, it would make sense to DIY everything yourself.

As people who live strictly on their rents and not income from a W-2 job, SID, a penny saved is a penny directly in our pocket. We pay ourselves every day! Groceries, cars, clothes: all paid with rents. So saving money on a job he can do makes DH happy. But he just as happily pays an expert when needed. He knows what he doesn't know and he knows what he doesn't want to do anymore.

We had to replace a septic field the other day. In order to fulfill the permit, an old well had to be taken out of service. In order to find the well head, a shed had to be moved. DH did a bit of digging himself to confirm locations and other issues - but then called in the guys with the big guns (backhoes) and expertise (well guy.) He's not foolish about what he does, but he does confirm what the tradespeople should be doing.

Like I said (twice), WMH... if it makes you happy, go for it... no fuss, no foul. I get it. I've been there, done that. And I've been on both sides.

I just can't argue the NUMBERS. The numbers do not lie. When I had 12 units and DIY's... I made X. When I took the tool out of my truck (and sold the stupid truck)... I made X * 500% and I have 54 units...all appreciating nicely and giving me tons of depreciation to protect both my rent income and W-2 income from Uncle Sam.

My time and life back are a bonus. Freedom is priceless! But it also pays handsomely.

This isn't about being right: this about acknowledging reality. If DIYing is your passion and you like it, then do it. Ignore me.

But if pure profit is your motive, and again THAT IS NE's assertion ... well... talk to any CEO, Brad 20K, or Jeffrey. That was a convention theme once: Do Less, Make More!

Good point about the farm, NE. SID, my issue is that a few on here - ahem - stress "Don't work on your rentals!" but in reality, especially nowadays, *especially* when you are just starting, you have to. But there is an element of shaming of those who do it.

We've all seen or heard about people jumping into rentals without a clue about the business OR properties. If you know nothing about nothing you're going to go broke.

NE,

Do you have a breakdown on that bill?

Delivery?

Emergency, weekend, or after hours fee?

Fuel surcharge?

Environmental impact fee?

Fuel provided?

Labor to turn the nut?

I changed HVAC company when they added $15 fuel surcharge to each trip INSIDE our town. Come on!

I do agree it is tougher now to get help. I used to hire off duty firemen, retired guys who liked to tinker, people who don't want to work inside a stinky factory, can't pass a drug test for factories...

Local factories no longer require a drug test and they send a van to pick up the workers, $14.75/hr.

I still contact contractors but with great frustration. Recent purchase needed paint - 5 bed, 2.5 bath - $10,000 labor plus paint. Another wanted $27,000 to hang 15 doors and lay LVT. $100/hr for basic rental turnover handyman tasks.

Who is paying these prices to encourage these guys?

BTW

Doing the work myself for 20 years got me started. I had no money and was barely squeezing ANY cashflow. I remember one home was $15/mo cash flow before taxes.

I enjoyed knowing I could swap out a toilet flapper in 60 seconds and walking thru Lowes with a big ring of keys on my belt. All the dept heads knew me.

I learned to paint REALLY fast because I was there until 2 am. No sleep until it's done. Great satisfaction.

At 55 homes I was going crazy. A retired man said "Let me do that with my adult son." They got the home ready in one day. Changed my perspective.

It's OK for a LL to do their own work. Just realize there are also other methods available.

My point exactly, Brad.

Sometimes hiring a contractor is NOT a good idea.

$27,000???? Holy cow.

Ken, with furnaces my lease states that if there’s any damage caused by running out of fuel, that the tenant is responsible. What would I have charged them? That depends on the tenant. They all would’ve got a very stern warning right up front to not let that happen again. If it was an A+ tenant, I would’ve let the first time slide minus the cost of the fuel. If they were a PITA tenant, they would’ve probably been charged the rate of labor in the lease plus fuel. Time involved maybe 100 bucks. And I’m fine with that.

The tenant paid this anyways. Maybe I probably should add in at lease HALF the cost of the HVAC companies charge as the service call fee. A flat 150 or $200, if we can fix it or HVAC companies cost if they have to come out. Is it too shabby for an hours worth of work.

In the commercial world, a dollar saved isn't a dollar earned. With a 10% Cap Rate it is $10. So if you can save yourself an extra $400 - you are gaining ten fold that.

Thought...

Don't add to your own TO DO list because the res is too lazy to do it themselves.

I look for SELF CONTAINED projects such as painting, mowing, swap ceiling fans...where there is a defined beginning and and end to farm out.

Back when I had 23 doors in the hood, full time job in mega corp, wife, 2 kids ... I hired a bi-lingual property manager for the rental side. She started at 10% then 12% then 15% of my gross rents. PLUS a months rent for any vacancy filled.

Needless to say my cashflow tanked from positive to break even. This manager would hire an electrician for a hallway light bulb change and a master plumber for a toilet clog. CYA was the way.

That's why I always say a pro property manager's goals are diametrically opposed to an owner/landlord's. It's not that they are crooked - it's just a totally different job with very different goals.

Their goal is to fill units quickly - rather than hold out for the RIGHT tenant, they will take the FIRST one to qualify. And turnover, for them, is not a bad thing - more cash in their pocket. Damages? You pay, not them, and they hire their guys to do them. After all one of their goals is to increase their maintenance income and keep their people busy. They also like to suggest upgrades and will provide the labor pool to do them (thanks!)

Even with Jeffrey's influence and savvy, he once said he found it impossible to hire a property management company whose goals aligned with his, even after much discussion and supposed agreement - it just didn't work out. I think he even said he tried a hybrid solution of some sort but that didn't work either. His solution was to hire and train up his own people to follow his rules. At least that's what sticks in my head. I hope I'm not lying.

My oldest is working for me right now. Between good jobs and all that.

She is showing more interest in the company but I still feel she is one application away form going back to the workforce.

The youngest has zero interest at all.

At least for the time being the oldest is learning some stuff. We are also getting more family time in because of it.

Zero my kids are much older than yours, I bet. My youngest is 35, middle is 49, my oldest will be 52 this year (good lord.) [I was a child bride :)]

26 and 28. Spent too much time when younger stuck at ugly houses on weekends and evenings.

Today worked out a little better than normal. I was cutting a very overgrown bush up to haul off. Had the help take a deadbolt out of another apartment while I ran the saw. Then I rekeyed the deadbolt while she loaded up the limbs. Went back to cutting, she replaced the deadbolt and loaded the rest of the rubbish.

Went back to the dump off area and I talked to a guy about new awnings on the phone while she unloaded the truck.

Just finished up with a small rehab so I didn't want to go back to my big job. Instead I went to her house, had lunch and worked on a couple of her honey do projects.

Maybe it will all kick in for her, but I still think that she is just trying for the easy money between jobs.