Another post got me thinking.

Does a rental ever work out if you follow the books and/or laws to a tee?

It seems as if there is always a situation that can occur in which you need to compromise and not necessarily follow the books. Not sure if I am phrasing things correctly here.

Creating ideas that successfully work,

It's difficult to follow all laws because some contradict each other.

But we haven't had any issues that I can think of, at least in recent memory, with following Landlord/Tenant laws. Reading them thoroughly and writing a lease that follows the rules has worked for us.

I'ld be broke if I didn't develop the skill set to work the "grey area".

I not talking about "self help evictions " ... none of those. I mean clean outs after an abandonment. Patch work for S8 inspections . Skipping the occupancy permit required in the hood to fill a vacancy sooner. Unpermitted tub, water heater, furnace installs on weekends . I could go on but you get the idea.

To quote Captain Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean, discussing the Pirates Code: "They're more like guidelines than actual rules."

The spirit of the law is to treat all parties fairly. That doesn't always work out, because humans are flawed, therefore the law is flawed, which is why anyone establishing a system of Govt makes ways to change laws so that they can flex with an ever-changing society. Likewise, people who live under the law who feel it is not fair sometimes take steps into their own hands. All well and good (heck, our country was started by a bunch of rowdy rebels who didn't like the laws of England, so they started shooting), but just be prepared to face the consequences of your actions if the powers that enforce the laws take offense to your rapscallion behaviors.

In other words, as NE sometimes does.... do what you gotta do and let the chips fall where they may. The laws on the books are the laws of men, and once they were not on the books, and someday they may be wiped from the books.

Sometimes you have to take a chance in order to have a chance.

However, taking chances when you have a lot to lose is foolish.

Example - I just closed on a place on Friday last week. It was the replacement property on a 1031 exchange. This is an awesome home that a contractor built and lived in for over 40 years! It has three acres 3 BR, 2 Ba. Only draw back is it only has 2 Car garage.

I can move into the place and live there, but you will need to claim income for two tax reporting periods first. Because this is so nice, I have lots of folks who claim that they are qualified but when push comes to shove.......they are not.

I have received three sets of apps on this place so far based on my virtual tour.

Well, I won't say yes or no, but consider this scenario and info.

Fact #1: applicant is a heroin addict who just started a treatment program.

Fact #2: The one year recidivism rate for heroin addicts in treatment programs is 80%.

Fact #3: You cannot discriminate based upon medical conditions/illnesses.

Fact #4: Addicts in treatment programs are considered to have a "medical condition

/illness."

Well, I won't say yes or no, but consider this scenario and info.

Fact #1: applicant is a heroin addict who just started a treatment program.

Fact #2: The one year recidivism rate for heroin addicts in treatment programs is 80%.

Fact #3: You cannot discriminate based upon medical conditions/illnesses.

Fact #4: Addicts in treatment programs are considered to have a "medical condition

/illness."

“Does a rental ever work out if you follow the books and/or laws to a tee?”

Is that really a serious question?

It all depends on how you were brought up.

If you were brought up to lie and to cheat people and get away with whatever you can, then you will answer “NO” to that question. If you were brought up to be an honest and decent man(?), to respect other people’s rights and property, and to live a life of integrity, then you will answer more affirmatively. Too often, it is used as an excuse for profiting at the expense of others, making up self-serving justifications as you go.

A better question would be, “Can you make a rental work out while still following the books and/or laws to a tee?”, and that simply depends on your own willingness and industriousness. If you cannot make it work out, then you have failed as a professional landlord and you should get out.

An example shows up in the recent discussion of carpet depreciation due to wear & tear vs depreciation due to damage. I expect that EVERY STATE restricts damage recovery to damage exceeding normal wear and tear. But most landlords replying to the inquiry about depreciation stated unabashedly that they would charge the security deposit for new carpet, using excuses like claiming that depreciation is nothing more than a tax concept, or that they are simply returning the condition to move-in condition. That’s nothing more than stealing. Depreciation is hardly just a tax concept: When you buy a new car, it depreciates with age, so that if you get into an accident after 10 years, the car’s worth is no longer that of a new car. The accuracy of the atomic clock on a GPS satellite decreases as time goes by, requiring the clock to be updated every two days. A piece of property may be expected to APPRECIATE over some years, and thus becomes worth MORE because of economic conditions over a period of time. Tax officials use various models to calculate how much taxes may be due from depreciation or appreciation, but the concept is that objects degrade when they are used and the courts use simple easily-understandable models to calculate the value of the degradation from various sources. Similarly, claiming restoration to “move-in condition” is a desperation claim, hoping to escape with an ill-gotten windfall. But the landlords here all know that. The ones that charge for new carpets are merely greedy and dishonest and relying on absurd fabrications to excuse their wrongdoing. No serious intelligent judge would let either excuse pass.

I am an honest man, myself, and I make my rentals work while still following the books and/or laws to a tee. My kids are that way, too, because that’s how we brought them up. My Son-in-law is a spirit-level straight shooter, and that’s what my daughter saw in him. My granddaughter is following in the family tradition.

What kind of man are YOU, 6x6? A straight shooter or just a landlord? You have the choice: keep up your moral standards and follow the books and/or laws because they’re the right thing and what our society runs on; or, get away with whatever you can, without regard to any personal values? Its not a question of, “does it work out”, but a question of “what do you choose”.

Thank you everyone for the replies.

NE, I don't know that I would ever forget that. That definitely seems to me to put a damper on the laws being a just and moral standard.

What rules? :)

MOSHE what dribble!!!..... first I don't do replacement cost on carpet that's reached its depreciation value. Many here do and I get it. Certainly their decision.

So, YOU, as that honest man when you get to court and your called every name in the book and the judge starts agreeing with that scum tenant-- you just take it?

6x6 this is a business not a past time or hobby. When things were lean for us LL's we had to improvise-- adapt! Now those days are gone????

EVERY opportunity must be taken in ANY business to maximize profits (to cover the lean years)

So to answer your question: no it doesn't work out. It would if EVERY ONE followed the laws. For me and my business I love and abide by the laws that benefit ME.

I've heard this from a local judge in court: Ms LL: what laws do you want me to follow? The laws for the tenant or just the laws for the LL? Now that was hilarious because most time no matter what the law-- the judges lean to the tenant side. (aka Voters)

Here's one just from Monday one of our cases. Tenant did not give 30 days notice to vacate. The judge would only give us the random days into the next month-- the law say 30 days notice from when the rent is normally paid-- so rather then the whole month we got 4 days. It took 26 days of work to get the place cleaned up and damages repaired. So it was empty those 30 days. NOPE only 4 days.

Lastly heard this about white letter law from a judge. About paying rent into the court when a case is appealed. We requested it be held by the court as required by GA code. Judge says with a straight face "I know what it says but I don't think that's what it means".

So again I ask LL's what part of the law do we follow 6? The LL part or the tenants?

Mmmm.... What can I say that others before me haven't said better?

********

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles sand organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free People.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

Geez thinking back to when I threw the squatters belongings out the window and secured the windows with 3 inch screws ... that WAS a "self help eviction".

Sid, you just made me remember a teacher whose method of punishment was having a wayward student write out the Preamble to the Constitution X number of times. What a good idea that was, now that I think back on it! I had a boyfriend that, 50 years later, can probably still recite it in his sleep, he had to do it so often :)

WMH same her in GA. Magistrates don't need to be any type law person. I knew a judge, who I worked with at the airlines, who loaded trucks in the evening where I worked.

WMH, that's hilarious, but I'm glad to hear that the punishment also provided a time to reflect on loftier ideas. Hopefully, said wayward student took the opportunity at self-improvement! My teacher just made us write sentences. Which, sadly just made me hate writing sentences. Not sure how I ended up being a high school English teacher.

It's kind of crazy to think how the USA started. Granted, there were some abuses of freedom, taxes, etc. But overall, I would argue that the situation today is far worse. Our elected representatives represent themselves and their careers, not us. Spending is out of control in both parties, and the debt is so large our great-grandkids will be paying it off. Talk about taxation without representations. Generations unborn are being sold into debt-bondage.

Meanwhile, the Brits levied a 2 shilling, 6 pence stamp tax and the colonials started shooting.... yes, I'm a historian so I know it was more than that, but considering what taxation and infringement on property rights look like today... it's nuts. I would say we are approaching a point where some folks will say (or already are saying) "enough"...

Yes, it works. I follow the law and my rental business works just fine. Screen carefully, and legally, and that eliminates most of the rental business problems.

However, I will qualify that. I live where the landlord laws are fairly well balanced and reasonable. It would be a lot harder to do in a place like California, Seattle, or New York.

If there is a legal work-around about the law, it is still following the law. If the state says a landlord must accept Section 8, it is not scoffing at the law to reject for poor credit. If the law says the landlord can not reject for criminal behavior, the landlord can still legally reject for bad landlord references or a bad in-home visit. That is not in any way disregarding the law,

Oregon your kidding yourself with your last sentence. Like a cop who pulls you over because your tag lite is out. We have this but we NOW found that.

NE, I appreciate the kind words.

I was thinking of being sued. The lawsuit was bogus, but, you know it costs a lot of money to defend oneself and is a huge distraction for years. The lawsuit would never have been pursued when I had nothing.

Thank you everyone again for the replies.

Thank you for the examples and explanations as well.

First, there's a term for people who self proclaim they follow all laws and then self described as honest. I'll save the name calling and simply say there has only ever been, and ever will be, one who can claim that. They have much higher credentials than anyone on this board.

Second, Moshe is confident of his interpretation of the law concerning security deposits. I interpret the opposite (with a full understanding of Texas statutes). Who's right? Does his proof through emphatic desire make it so? Or his hypocritical judgement of others? I don't think either of those has an ounce of bearing. What does is how the Judge interprets it. Even then, it can be overturned by a higher Judge. You don't really know if you are following the law until you are standing before the Supreme Court receiving the final judgement. Even then it can change over time. The overturn of Rowe VS Wade recently is a perfect example. It's all relative to human interpretation and subject to change. There's also volumes written to debate two concepts: intent of law VS letter of law, that is what Sid was referring to above and also relevant to the discussion. I read once that if you printed all the laws it would fill every professional baseball stadium in the US to the roof, how would you even know what they all are much less follow them. Only a fool would ever say they always follow the law much less to the T.

Finally, law and morality are not the same thing. I believe it is morally wrong to kill a baby with an abortion yet it is legal in some states. Morality, which has its roots in unwavering Biblical standard is much more important than laws. Laws are a societal contract subject to change and corruption. Martin Luther King has some great points on this subject and is worth the time reading. You can't go wrong when you follow a solid moral compass, laws are a distant second. All that said, even the best of us will fail both, that's why we need God's grace.

great post Mike.

"You don't really know if you are following the law until you are standing before the Supreme Court"

I say receiving the final judgement in a higher court is coming to us all.. His SUPREME LAW will rule us all! People may change laws but not commandments. George Carlin tried.

I manage my own rentals plus those of my family. So they have no grief and can travel the world on the income I make for them.

My brother tells everyone that I don't know what I'm doing. I compromise and allow my low income tenants to paid rent late without consequences. My family will not invest in any project of mine for the past 45 years, unless it is Grade "A" or "B", never lower than that.

As a contractor, landlords that allow their property to get away from them, management wise want to hire me to re-hab their units for a sale. I explain that that will take time and money, plus their insurance was cancelled and gangs won't leave that easily. So instead we get three quotes and inspections and I buy the property for cash on the cheap.

This way I inherit my sellers bad tenants. So in a 16 unit property, 8 were never going to pay the back rent or current rent. 4 paid on time, 4 were a week late.

So I made it clean, I will work with them so long as they are making payments. My brother thinks I'm crazy. But instead of having 50% of the income, I manage to receive 80% and the other 20% I evict.

Doing the numbers I'm able to make a profit from day one an keep improving the property. Selling 9 years later to 4 times what I paid, making well over 1M.

Here is where my brother comes in. He is a stickler for detains and follows the lease to a tee. So a tenant of his in a nice single family home is breaking up with his wife and can not pay the rent in full. My brother advises me to evict him. I say you should first look at the house's condition. Nope he doesn't care. So I work up a price to do a make over at around $70,000. He screams at me and calls his local friends who did a make over on their homes. The best two quotes he got was for $175,000 and $215,000. More than double my estimate.