What has happened when your tenants who don't have health insurance get a big medical bill? Do they tend to ignore it and pay rent first? --68.56.xxx.xx

They pay rent first because they can stall paying medical bills for months or years. --99.23.xxx.x

None of my business. I also ignore medical on credit reports. Too convoluted of a system to hold against someone for not paying. --174.240.xxx.xx

--67.209.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

You mean the unaffordable care act? You shouldn’t have to have insurance just to go to the doctor David. --174.240.xxx.xx

At least you get the rental car prices upfront. It’s not like you were given the keys and then a month later you open the bill and your jaw hits the freaking floor --174.240.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

Want lower premiums? Get a better job. --68.56.xxx.xx

What’s a job? You shouldn’t have to have health insurance for doctors at all David. It should be in line with what the market can bare. I have my own reasons for not holding medical against tenants. You do you. Good luck requiring health insurance on self-employed tenants. Or any tenants for that matter. --174.240.xxx.xx

I don't accept self employed or 1099 or tenants. Only W2. Nearly all of my tenants have steady white collar jobs. --68.56.xxx.xx

You’re missing my point, but I’m not surprised. If all of your tenants have W-2 jobs, then why are you worried about it? --174.240.xxx.xx

Do you want to talk about price gouging? If it can’t be paid for out of the common man’s wallet, how is that not price gouging? Convoluted and extremely corrupt/broken system. --174.240.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

I expect things to be in line with the market. Yes, 100%. --174.240.xxx.xx

If you stay in network, even when you haven't hit the deductible, your insurance company has negotiated rates with the medical provider. Do you think the insurance company is leaving money on the table? --68.56.xxx.xx

I don't think you'll like it NE but you can Google Medicare for all --68.56.xxx.xx

Just the fact that you have to have the insurance alone proves that it is inflated. --174.240.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

Whatever the average family can afford paying cash. --174.240.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

How naïve can you be? Government subsidies. Pharmaceutical company kickbacks. Welfare. Unnecessary elective surgeries paid for with tax dollars. And you don’t think their prices are inflated? The environment alone is ripe for it. Not to mention the whole scamdemic fiasco the last few years. Yes, I have and will always ignore medical bills on prospective tenants credit reports. --174.240.xxx.xx

Even the socialists would think you're crazy --68.56.xxx.xx

Also, your number two is wrong. It is not what the market pays. That’s what the insurance companies and medical industry controls. --174.240.xxx.xx

I think there are many things wrong with our nation David. I think $700 in the bank is just as wrong as $500,000 for a heart transplant. Everything is out of whack. --174.240.xxx.xx

Wrong NE, $500k is for kidney. A heart transplant runs a cool $1.7mil --68.56.xxx.xx

Yeah, exactly. --174.240.xxx.xx

I would gladly ignore that person’s medical record if everything else checked out. He certainly doesn’t need a colonoscopy right his heart transplant. --24.152.xxx.xx

Real value versus insured value are two different things to different things. --174.240.xxx.xx

--73.190.xxx.xxx

6 x 6, I’m not sure what any lesson any of us can get here about economics and capitalism from the medical industry. They don’t play by the same rules that we do. They are an insurance driven industry, essentially a universe of its own. --24.152.xxx.xx

Except that: the bigger you are, the more you can make the rules. --24.152.xxx.xx

Accepted at the hospital, not accepted for landlords --24.101.xxx.xxx

The point of insurance is to take into account the risk of needing expensive treatments and spread it throughout a large pool. --68.56.xxx.xx

David, read Ray’s post. He understands it. --24.152.xxx.xx

David, I’ve studied my butt off for years regarding real estate and working on these properties. I am a small timer, but I guarantee I have more real estate debt tied up in my portfolio than doctors do in their student loans. Where is my insurance program so I can jack my rents up to whatever I want them to be? Maybe make some donations to some politician and tie it into the affordable housing crisis. Or maybe for the children. That always seems to work. --24.152.xxx.xx

Besides for the big ticket items, the cost will blow past your deductible and OOPmax so it won't make a difference --68.56.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

No one is negotiating with you on behalf of tenants! --68.56.xxx.xx

In regards to the shopping around for Dr. Nick from the Simpsons, you do know that different insurance policies are going to afford someone different care right? So the rich are deserving of better healthcare than the poor? If costs were in line with reality the poor man’s $700 in his savings account would be equal to the rich man’s $700. Affording them both the same level of care. You’ll never convince me that the system is not corrupt. So another reason why I ignore medical collections on credit reports. --24.152.xxx.xx

--73.190.xxx.xxx

You’re absolutely right, no one is negotiating with me on behalf of my tenants. But how many cities in this country negotiate with your tenants against you? Rent control? The prices can go sky high in the medical industry, but not in the housing industry. Hmmmm…. --24.152.xxx.xx

6 x 6, I don’t think that it’s for people living in fear. I think the system was taken control of long ago and that’s why we have the insurance. At this point, it’s a necessary evil. There’s plenty of cost-sharing programs out there, I belong to one myself. The Amish even do it, they don’t have insurance. --24.152.xxx.xx

"So the rich are deserving of better healthcare than the poor" in a capitalist system, yes . That's why we have insurance, to spread the risk of large expenses --68.56.xxx.xx

6 x 6, you have to realize, medical insurance is a relatively new idea in the history of medicine. It wasn’t too long ago that then we would trade chickens are eggs for the doctor’s services. In balance with the common man. --24.152.xxx.xx

Maybe that's part of the problem? --73.190.xxx.xxx

Does a rich man’s truck deserve to be fixed better than a poor man’s truck? Does a Rich man’s roof deserve to be fixed better than a poor man’s roof? Smoking some of Hunter’s crack. --24.152.xxx.xx

I feel sorry for lower income folks that can be hurt that much more by doing nothing at all. --24.101.xxx.xxx

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs, karl marx --68.56.xxx.xx

Are cost sharing programs local? --73.190.xxx.xxx

Ray, of course it would be good to have upfront prices, just won't make a difference in people's choices for big ticket items --68.56.xxx.xx

Not surprised. --24.152.xxx.xx

If we truly cared for one another, we would have a much better medical expense system in place in this country than we do now. --24.152.xxx.xx

Well NE tell us, what is a fair price for surgeon and hospital to charge for a kidney transplant? For a hip replacement? For the average American who makes $50k a year? --68.56.xxx.xx

I am over-insured, but it is a racket at best. --107.147.xx.xxx

David, that’s very simple. Whatever the average man can afford within the economy. --24.152.xxx.xx

Zero, who do you think is going to pay to make up what the hospital lost on your MIL and others who broke without insurance? The rest of us. You're right it's a racket but only in the sense that people aren't forced to pay and get discount or free treatment --68.56.xxx.xx

Again, the average man or woman will not need a transplant or major surgery. That's the point of insurance!! --68.56.xxx.xx

if medical insurance industry was done away with? The doctors, the colleges, the pharmaceutical companies, the medical suppliers, the hospitals, they would all adjust their prices down to match the true economy --24.152.xxx.xx

David, zero’s mother didn’t even cause a blip on their radar. --24.152.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

No producer in a free market would voluntary adjust their prices below their cost. They would go out of business!!!!! --68.56.xxx.xx

NE I think you're a closet socialist. It's okay, I won't judge --68.56.xxx.xx

You would probably see the quality of care go up. --24.152.xxx.xx

Kind of tough to trust an industry that has a vested interest in keeping people sick --24.152.xxx.xx

Hahahaha, you think if people were paid less... They would do better work. Hahaha omg Marx would think you're crazy --68.56.xxx.xx

You don’t think people would still be surgeons, sure they would. The ones who really cared about healing people. I know you are a systems guy and can’t really think outside of them, but there’s different possibilities. So what are you gonna do David? Not rent to people who don’t have medical insurance? Foolish. I would say it would be in a landlord best interest to in fact RENT to people that have medical collections. The more the merrier if everything else checks out. It’s not like they’re gonna qualify for a mortgage anytime soon. Plus, we know there’s landlords out there like you who won’t rent to them --24.152.xxx.xx

If you want to be suspicious of the insurace-big pharma-medical complex, fine I'm there with you. But don't pretend that you can get something for less than it costs to make. --68.56.xxx.xx

Hahhahahaha --68.56.xxx.xx

The inflated costs you mean? --24.152.xxx.xx

don't you think that when the deductible is $4k and the insurance company has to fork out $50k for hip replacement, they will have negotiated it down to the lowest? --68.56.xxx.xx

Of course they do, wouldn’t you? But why the middle man? Of course this is all hypothetical and obviously won’t go away now. Doesn’t mean it the best we can do though. Too many moving parts, too many hands in the pot. That’s why medical collections are so common. --174.240.xxx.xx

NE I don't know if you're being argumentive for the thrill of it, but the point of medical insurance is no different than car insurance or home insurance or life insurance or liability insurance. It's to pool the risks of a large number of customers --68.56.xxx.xx

And before you say medical too much for average american, my dad was a penniless foreign graduate student, but my mom got surgery because of insurance and didn't burden us financially --68.56.xxx.xx

Anyway…. Maybe next we can discuss the eduction system and how we’d be better off going back to the one room schoolhouses. Or dissolving the media? Oh the dreams we can dream. --24.152.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

After all, how can the average American afford $40k a year private school --68.56.xxx.xx

Things happen even with insurance. My first child was a preemie. I was rushed to a Boston hospital and lay on bed rest for a few weeks. My child was born there and stayed about 3 weeks before being transferred to a local community hospital in NH. Total hospital stay between us was 7 weeks. I was a public school teacher with 100% maternity coverage. I also had my husbands as secondary coverage. However due to 2 insurance debacles, I had no out of state coverage from my teacher’s policy and no coverage from my husbands. BC&BS stopped the reciprocity agreement with out of state and didn’t start the out of area plan for 6 months when one plan should have ended at 11:59 with the next starting at 12:00. He was born during that time and I apparently had no out of state coverage. To boot, my husband’s company somehow stopped our insurance for a month by mistake and he was born during that month. The hospital bill was paid in full but every department at the Boston hospital billed separately. Insurance wouldn’t pay in full even though they should have and ultimately I had to convince every group to write off 30% of their bill and take the payment amount BC&BS mailed me as payment in full. 30 years ago the total amount was 100k. It took a year and a lot of heartburn but they all did. Someone else without the drive to overturn every stone and fight would have ended up paying, with medical debt or bankruptcy. --73.159.xxx.xx

Another reminder to not have children. --73.190.xxx.xxx

Well David, you can’t truly believe that about school vouchers. Because in that case, the poor kid could attend the same school as the rich kid. And we know you don’t want that medically. Because not only are the rich and the poor segregated medically in America through quality of insurance policies, they are also segregated in America through zoning and taxing districts. We know you don’t like zoning either. So if you want your kid to go to a better school, get a better job David. --24.152.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

If you get some qualified tenants who don’t have medical insurance, send them my way. Especially with todays abysmal tenant pool. --174.240.xxx.xxx

My three scenarios were three different patients - same huge medical system - different supplemental plans. --98.237.xxx.xx

Get a room! --74.75.xxx.xxx

Relax Tom. It’s a “discussion” forum and people get so up tight when they get heated. --174.240.xxx.xx

Keep up the good work. --24.183.xxx.xxx

--67.209.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

You do not need a bachelors degree for a decent paying job,i dont have one,many of my friends dont have one and make 100k a year or better.A responsible person will save for college? so you expect a 15 year old to be saving for college? --74.77.xx.xx

Forgiving students loans isn't any different than forgiving medical debt. You and I are paying when others don't pay their medical bills --68.56.xxx.xx

I don't expect a 15 year to save for college. I expect their parents to save for college. Just like I expect their parents to save for medical care. --68.56.xxx.xx

Employee mindset. That makes things make a lot more sense now. --24.152.xxx.xx

. --68.56.xxx.xx

Oh and I get employer subsidized health insurance PPO for $300 month including kids --68.56.xxx.xx

Quit your job, sell your assets and donate your money to charity. Then rebuild your life from zero. Then you can come back and tell me how much you think medical expenses and the costs of college degrees are in line with reality. --24.152.xxx.xx

But hey, if you want to forgive student loans and implement Medicare for all, I'm on board your side ¯ --68.56.xxx.xx

My parents gave me nothing. Did it all myself. I don’t want to forgive student loans at all, I worked my a$$ off to pay back every dime. You signed it, you pay it. But unlike medical, at least you knew the expense of college beforehand. If I knew then what I know now, I never even would’ve went. At least you have the option to choose between community college and university. Enslavement through education via debt Is never a good choice. Especially when you’re 17 and 18 years old and don’t know any better. When you’re sold an idea. --24.152.xxx.xx

And to gray your hair a little more this morning David, if you got rid of government subsidizes student loans, you’d see college tuition plummet back in line with reality pretty quick too. Medical and education has been hijacked by some sinister middlemen. --24.152.xxx.xx

--68.56.xxx.xx

But if you try the same with eliminating health insurance, well, say good bye to 99% of modern medicine. No hip replacement. No transplants. No chemo. No labor and delivery --68.56.xxx.xx

Your path to a good insurance policy is not freedom minded. It is Employee minded. It is a degree of dependency on someone else. That is not what the entrepreneur does. --24.152.xxx.xx

And David, I’m not saying that you are wrong for Having a job, so please don’t misunderstand me. You have found one that is very minimal of time with very good money and handles your health insurance. I know lots of people that have their job who can retire but just do it still for the health insurance. Which basically proves my point that medical costs are way out of line with reality. --24.152.xxx.xx

A heart transplants costs money because, well, it does? --68.56.xxx.xx

Should the heart surgeon not be paid $700k? Should the anesthesiologist not be paid $500k ? Should the nurses not be paid $100k each? If you want to pay them less, well I'm on board. But just like with rent control, you impose price cap and you get shortages. --68.56.xxx.xx

Their annual income should be based on what the market can bear. A roof cost $500 a square, because that’s what the market will pay. --24.152.xxx.xx

But I don’t expect it to ever change. With padded bills and insurance payout snafus, I have to ignore medical collections on credit reports. Maybe I’ll have to start looking at a Noring student loan debt if they were signed for when the kid was 18 or 19 years old and didn’t know any better. --24.152.xxx.xx

Tell me NE what do you think a fair salary for a heart surgeon or anesthesiologist should be? --68.56.xxx.xx

That’s not a real market. --24.152.xxx.xx

Sure it is, insurance companies have every incentive to pay as little as possible for a heart transplant --68.56.xxx.xx

I don’t know what they should be paid and any number that I were to throw out would be hypothetical. In the real market, you can go to a crappy mechanic or you can go to an excellent mechanic And you pay their costs out of your wallet. Personally, I go to different mechanics for different reasons. With an industry that’s been hijacked by insurance companies and you yourself admitting that someone with a better policy deserves better healthcare, segregating the rich and the poor. How can I take their debt collections seriously? --24.152.xxx.xx

Exactly David, and these insurance companies being in the middle have forced the inflation of these prices to the moon man. It’s not that hard to see. --24.152.xxx.xx

I never went myself, but can't help but constantly wonder if I have missed something. --73.190.xxx.xxx

I had one college course that was labor & production or something like that that was definitely impactful to this day with running costs on properties and remodels, etc. A lot of them I don’t even remember. I mailed my degree To my mother several years ago because I didn’t want it anymore and she called me and she thought something was wrong. I said no, I just have no need for it anymore thought you might like it. --24.152.xxx.xx

If you want to eliminate insurance overhead and profit, Google Medicare for all --68.56.xxx.xx

6 x 6, I remember one key phrase that the professor in that class said one time that helps me to this day. I was in college for culinary arts and when we were talking about taking raw product and developing recipes, etc. He said the basic idea here is that you buy something, you change it, and you resell it. And that’s still what I do to this day and I hear that phrase in my mind often. --24.152.xxx.xx

Oh yes David, car insurance. That is for catastrophic damage. You don’t need car insurance to go get your brakes done. You don’t need car insurance to go get an oil change. You don’t even get to use car insurance if you have to put a new transmission or engine in your car. --24.152.xxx.xx

But 6x6, in all those college courses, none of them taught me to be an entrepreneur. They all taught me how to be a good employee. It wasn’t until a few years after college when I was working one day and I looked around the kitchen and I said you know what, if you removed all of this equipment out of the kitchen it’s not much different than being inside of a prison. And that started my journey. --24.152.xxx.xx

You don't consider chemotherapy to be catastrophic damage? Heart transplant to be catastrophic damage? Hip replacement to be catastrophic Damage? --68.56.xxx.xx

Of course I do. David. I also expect that if I hit a deer tonight in my pick up truck and I don’t have full coverage that I can pay out-of-pocket to get it fixed or buy another one out of pocket. Neither of us are ever going to convince the other one to change their mind. --24.152.xxx.xx

Here’s another idea to gray the rest of your hair David. If you got rid of medical insurance, not only would you see the prices overall come down in the medical industry, you would probably see the health of the American individual get better as well. We would have an actual incentive to stay healthy. --24.152.xxx.xx

The whole point of insurance is to cover very unlikely but very expensive events. I don't have to change your mind, I m just pointing out how wrong you are --68.56.xxx.xx

The cost of a heart transplant will never be lower than seven figures, much less lower than six figures. You will simply put it out of reach for anyone but the wealthy --68.56.xxx.xx

Thank you, NE, thank you. --73.190.xxx.xxx

If you had no health insurance nationally, absolutely people would be able to afford the cost. The industry would have no choice but to regulate itself. I don’t understand how you can read all about economics and markets on here year after year after year, but make endless exceptions for the medical industry. It’s no different dude. --24.152.xxx.xx

I wish I had this kind of free time on my hands, not reading any of it. --172.56.xxx.xxx

How exactly do you plan to pay for a transplant for your child if there's no health insurance? Do you expect the surgeon and anesthesiologist to work for $50k a year? How much do you think the price of a transplant will drop to? The average American couldn't afford $10k much less $100k --68.56.xxx.xx

Medical insurance is necessary, because we made it that way. It’s a big business. --24.152.xxx.xx

Again, tell me, how do you plan to get the cost of a heart transplant affordable for the average American without insurance? --68.56.xxx.xx

I told you 50 times. Get rid of medical insurance and let the industry regulate. You’re not gonna get medical insurance backed pricing without medical insurance. Do you not see the correlation? --24.152.xxx.xx

Of course it’s not going to happen though. Our country is too far down the healthcare rabbit hole to ever pull out of it. And there’s too many people getting extremely rich off of it. Relax Jason, I know it’s not your typical kumbaya. It’s a debate of ideas. Not for most people to get involved in anyways. --24.152.xxx.xx

And the industry will find that the cost will be $1million and only the rich can afford it. What the ? --68.56.xxx.xx

You can have the most competitive and free market but the price will never go below the cost to produce. Not sure how you can't understand that --68.56.xxx.xx

Incorrect. Then that doctor goes out of business and the one who finds out how to provide it to what the market will bear becomes the best in business. --24.152.xxx.xx

Maybe I should sell everything and become a doctor. Even if I went to a crappy college, and I still get a degree, I can still be a doctor, right? There isn’t even any incentive for me to be the best. --24.152.xxx.xx

You don't seem to even understand simple economics --68.56.xxx.xx

I think you're confused. Why wouldn't a heart surgeon be incentive by $700k salary to be best? --68.56.xxx.xx

David, remember when the hospitals were all “overwhelmed” with an “unprecedented” number of patients during the scamdemic? I do. Patients who for the most part had their bills paid by insurance. Yet these hospitals received billion dollars in stimulus bail out money? I wonder how much of those billions were passed off to customers in the form of reduced costs? Haha, ya I didn’t think so. Talk about having your cake and eating it too! No corruption here. I bet I could make a little side business selling bumper stickers: “Medical collections is not real debt!” Hahaha --24.152.xxx.xx

At the end of the day David, when it’s applied to a landlord/tenant situation, I think it doesn’t matter. You and I have made it pretty clear that it would be an opinion and perspective based decision. That will always blur the lines of clear screening practices. You seem to see it as a just system, so by all means, use it to disqualify good prospects. I see it as a broken and UNFIXABLE system, so no way would I use those debts to deny and otherwise 5 star well screened prospect. I don’t think it’s a good representation of their overall position in life. --24.152.xxx.xx

6x6 I will tell you what i got from college and i graduated in 1985.I was taught to be an employee which didnt apply because when i gratuated i saw the jobs my friends got and said no way,i never worked for anyone again except my dad for 6 months.What i got was lots of great memories of the classes and the parties in the dorms and in town and a number of friends i am still in touch with to this day but nothing in terms of how to make money --74.77.xx.xx

Thank you, Ken, very much. --73.190.xxx.xxx

I'm betting that I learn more on this forum than I ever would have in college. This post has been very educational. Thank you David. --73.190.xxx.xxx

6x6 as an example of what you dont learn in college, I am teaching a young family member the rental and flipping business,he has a 4 year business degree and a good job,personally i think he could have done the job itself out of high school but they hand out the jobs only to people with degrees so it cuts down on the interviews and so if something goes wrng the interviewers can say well he had a degree rather than putting there neck on the line.I aske him one day did they teach you any of this at college? he said no not at all.He is learning how to evaluate tenants,evaluate a deal,evaluate employees etc all pretty much from scratch.Occasionally i ask him did you learn any of this at college and the answer is always no --74.77.xx.xx

Thank you Ken for the further examples. --73.190.xxx.xxx

--67.209.xxx.xx

I’m absolutely not going down that rabbit hole with you John. 50% or more of the population know it was a scam. --24.152.xxx.xx

I think the govt was paying the bills during covid, i spent 8 days in the hospital and 30 days home on oxygen,i had already gotten rid of covid before i went in the hospital but oxygen levels were low but everyone suited up anyway,i assumed so they could all get paid as if i still had covid, i never got a bill for a deductable or anything else so i doubt my insurance company paid it or i would have been billed at least for the deductible. the hospital was not full,an entire wing was closed because they got rid of all the nurses who refused to get a shot so they artificially created a problem --74.77.xx.xx

NE: You seem to have ignored the important part of that reply. It wasn't about whether or not it was a scam. It was about your statement that all of the patients had their bills paid by insurance. THAT is what the important part of that discussion was. --67.209.xxx.xx