I was out of the country for a while, folks. Glad to be back because my Espanol is no bien. Still a fun trip. Money and alcohol seem to be a universal language. (*grins)

Anyway, this morning I responded to a post by GKARL from a few days back. He talked about doing a floor himself and the reasons for why he did that. I started out the exact same way. But what I found was that with 12 units, I was always running around in circles, never getting ahead. Meager profits. Long nights and weekends. Missing my wife and kids. Cuts, bruises, and a garage full of every little bit of "this and that" imaginable. Drywall, 8 different buckets of my one paint color with different addresses written on them, 2x4s, 20 different sizes of screws, etc. For awhile, I couldn't park one of our two cars in there.

This was the life I anticipated doing until all the mortgages were paid off in.... 15 - 20 years. Eegad!

Then several years ago Brad 20K asked me, "What do you want out of all this: to be a DIY handyman or a real estate investor?"

I answered "real estate investor."

He then kindly proceeded to tell me why I was failing to reach my goals. I said I wanted one thing, but my actions showed I wanted something else. I wanted to save every penny. I wanted to be self-reliant. I wanted the tools and the tricks to impress friends with how handy I was (hey, I laid 6 tile floors!... who does that?!?).

Then I realized... what kind of investor DOES that? I had studied all the big players: none of them did everything. They did THE thing that only they were good at. Everything else was outsourced, delegated, hired out, etc. They kept a steady hand on the tiller and while looking further to distant shores.

Over the years at several Mr. LL Conventions, Jeffrey (Mr. Landlord) reinforced this concept with this Level 1 - 5 of landlording. Maybe he'll be kind enough to repeat the specifics of it here, but basically Level 1 / 2 landlord was what I was: I was down in the weeds, doing everything, making small profits, and leaving very little room for growth. Had I stayed on that trajectory, there's no way I'd be where I am today. I had to change my thinking and align my actions to reaching my actual goals.

So, today I think it's good to ask ourselves: "What do I want?" There's no wrong answer, but I think the trick I learned is we need to continually work hard at aligning our actions with our desires. I could be the worlds best DIY landlord and probably never own more than 10 units, and someday I'd have 10 paid off houses and know how to use every tool from a roto-zip to a Sawzall to a planer. A fine achievement, to be sure, and not throwing shade on it at all.

But that's not why I got into the biz. I got into it because it was exciting. I said I wanted to be a wealthy investors who could do a lot of good, have a lot of fun, and enjoy the ride while building a family legacy. It really is true that until I changed my mind, my goals weren't getting any closer... or rather they were only inching forward instead of propelling us forward.

All the greats seem to have this in common: they align their actions with their desires. Patrick Mahomes, 2-time super bowl winning QB for the KC Chiefs, spends days on end training to be the best QB. He practices throwing, running, and somehow trains to have eyes in the back of his head. He doesn't spend days learning how to fix his toilet so he doesn't have to call a plumber. Now maybe he does know how to do that, but my guess is his father who was an MLB player taught him differently. Likewise, Warren Buffet learned how to find companies that had undervalued stocks: he didn't spend time trying to figure out how to change a ceiling fan.

So... what do you want? Are your actions creating results that are getting there? What was your dream 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, and have you hit it yet? If not, then why not? This applies to not only investing, but also to families, friendships, fitness goals, intellectual development, and a host of other endeavors at which we strive to excel. It ain't all just about the money.

It boils down to one question. What needs to change: other people or you?

Enjoy your time thinking about it!

Well said S i d!

"What needs to change: other people or you?"

They say if you want to get something done efficiently, find the laziest person you can and follow their example. :) Some of you are workaholics, plain and simple, including my DH. Not me - I am always looking for ways to do something faster or easier, or to find someone I can pay to do what I want done. I'm lazy :)

"What was your dream 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, and have you hit it yet?"

Our dream 20 years ago was to find a way to support ourselves reliably in retirement - while leaving the W-2 jobs early. 15 years ago it was to find more houses to fully support Dream #1. 10 Years ago it was to get enough properties so we could leave equal numbers to each kid.

5 years ago we started thinking about the dying process, and worked on the estate paperwork stuff in earnest in 2019 and 2020.

With that in place, a big relief, we started working on transitioning the business by training up one of the kids on the day to day process. That's on-going but working.

Sid, thank you for this post.

I had left a response on the other post that you referred to. I will paste a copy here but you answered most of my questions here I believe.

I like the questions that you posed. The short answer is "me".

Here is the copy of my response on the other post.

"Sid, I appreciate how you explain things. You are usually always pretty thorough and explain them well. I may not always completely understand, just do to lack of experience or what have you, and I seem to be slow at the willingness to implement some things, although not sure why.

You are absolutely right about spending a lot of money in tools and a lot of time to learn the task. I would like to ask you a few questions in regard to this. I hope that I phrase them correctly.

At what point do you know that you are working on your business instead of in it?

If you still manage your own properties but hire out everything else, are you working on your business or in it?

Does the answer to that question depend on how many rentals that a person has?

Also, does the answer to that question depend on how much experience that a person has?

I like working with my hands more so then paperwork, however, I also like the idea of not being so stressed trying to figure out how I am going to get a major rehab done because I am literally wearing all of the hats more or less.

What made you end up breaking that cycle and habit?

SID,

Nicely said!

Now...inquiring minds want to know WHAT DID YOU CHANGE? and HOW DID YOU CHANGE?

Me? I took the tools out of my truck. I HAD TO hire and delegate. The text message is mightier than the nail gun!

Oh, and in case anyone did not know, I want

FREEDOM!!!

I struggle with this. I seem to overpay pros... or hire lackluster handymen... then I get frustrated and tackle something myself and it takes me forever to get to it...and some time to get it done...

What's crazy...is I LIKE some of the hands on stuff if I have time. (My day business is biz-to-biz lotta computer time). I like tools.

And honestly, I'm pretty darn good (and fast) at:

Demo

Cleanouts

Rough cleanups

Pest control

Landscape work

Painting

I'm also slow as heck and very shoddy work at:

carpentry

trim

flooring

drywall

electrical

plumbing

hvac

My highest and best use of my time is prolly- finding and closing good deals. That being said, I often need mental break and hands on provides that plus excercise.

Man, this hit home hard. About 8 years ago, this was me as well. Heck, even 2 years ago, it was still me to a point. I'm like Ned in that I actually enjoy some of it. But, I also found out that I wasn't getting anything done by doing it myself. Not only that, I didn't have time to look for more deals. I made a major change and forced myself to stop doing so much. I hired a guy, then another guy, then another. Time freed up, more houses were purchased and more money was made. It's amazing how it works!

I was on the same path as you SID. First few places I did all myself. Then I started hiring a handyman for some stuff as I grew and worked along side them on the weekends or after work. I really really really have trouble taking the tools out of the truck. But alas, with the rehab of our 27th unit (maybe 28th I can’t remember) almost complete……the only thing I have done is order supplies online from Menards and had the handyman pick them up on his way to working on the house.

I'm with Ned. When I have a talented workman that I can trust, I use him and pay him decently. I often work at the location simultaneously, usually as what I call an expediter. In other words, I do whatever is needed to keep the job moving. Sometimes, I even get an education working with someone more skilled than me. If I don't have someone I can trust to handle the job, I do it myself with basic laborers' help.

This month, a new tenant texted me that the clothes dryer was not working. I told her I would check it the next day when I picked up the rent. I went down the basement and checked for power to the dryer, which there was. Turned on but no airflow or heat. Pulled the lint filter and there was and inch and a half of buildup--they did not know to clean it!

Now, if I had simply called a repair service it would have been at least a $100 service call to learn that, assuming they were honest and did not try to sell me an unneeded repair.

Tonight, another tenant texted the the garbage disposal is not working. It can only be a jam because of dried food that was not flushed or a hard object fell down the drain and is jamming the blades. Either way, I'll clear it in a few minutes, and I will also get to make sure that their ne dog is not damaging the place. Should I just have called a plumber?

What I want is to retire from my day job and do this full time and get some of Brad's FREEDOM (but freedom isn't free, is it?)

While at the convention I was talking with Brad and he brought up Sid's growth. Seems Sid was in the same situation as I am currently.

I do all the maintenance stuff. I do all the rehabs even if I am lucky enough to find workers. I can't find anyone who will be dependable enough that I can stop. Nobody wants to learn unless they get paid top dollar, which means I am still out there working and making less.

The last really good handyman type that I had is charging $25/hr. Doesn't sound like much until you realize what my rents are. I am bumping them, but at some point it will be too much and people won't be able to afford it.

So if he doesn't work OT, which he should if on call, then we are looking at 1k a week. So in essence 52k per year. That is more than half what I make right now. I would need to grow by double instantly to stay the same as I am.

Instead I am trying to find a happy medium. I just gave up mowing, which saves me a day but costs me more per week. I know I can use that day to work on the rehabs I have coming up.

I am typing this while getting ready for court. Two evictions at the same time. This has not happened to me before. Next tenants will be vetted better. Then I have a stove to swap out before I can get to the work I have already been doing.

I want to grow, I want to spend less time working on the places. I am getting there but it is a slow journey.

Have saved time and money from listening to the good folks on here. Going to the convention was an eye opener for me and especially the Boss.

Sid,

Wow, lots of interesting responses. I'll try my best to answer:

6x6...

At what point do you know that you are working on your business instead of in it?

A: That's constantly evolving. The more I delegate out, the more I'm working on my business instead of in it. It's not like a switch flips and you go from 0% to 100%. But lets say when I started out it was 90% in and 10% on. Gradually over time that has changed. If I were guessing, I'd says I'm at 15% in and 85% on right now. I still screen my own tenants, do the accounting, and evaluate purchasing and sales, but otherwise everything is hired out. Technology helps with this a ton. My goal is to get to around 5% in and 95% on. There will always be some tasks that only I will do, even if it's simply deciding which properties to buy and sell.

If you still manage your own properties but hire out everything else, are you working on your business or in it?

Kinda answered that above. If I were to hire out to a PM, really all they'd be taking over is my accounting and screening tasks, which don't take me much time. When you hire a PM, you also have to follow up with them and make sure they're doing right by you... "managing the manager". So again, there's no point where you are 100% free and do absolutely nothing... unless you're dumb enough to let someone rob you blind. Even the most outsourced company has a CEO with a hand on the tiller or a Board of Directors making sure the ship is on course. My point here is we need to always be focusing on doing the most valuable tasks we can and avoid the low-value tasks that are distracting us.

Does the answer to that question depend on how many rentals that a person has?

Maybe... it might not make sense if all you're going to do is rent out one little house. But as I mentioned, at 12 units I was going nuts, making barely any profits, working an extra 20 hours a week on top of my 40 hour days job, and still always felt behind the ball. Missing time with family and friends. Lacking freedom. I'd say anything over 10 properties will sink you eventually unless you're a full timer, in which case you bought yourself a job, not an investment.

Also, does the answer to that question depend on how much experience that a person has?

Again... maybe. We don't know what we don't know. I look back now and see how smoothly things are operating. I don't think I really needed to learn how to sling a paint brush or lay tile flooring. What I needed to do is find a deal that was good enough to allow me the cash flow to pay others to do that for me with expertise. I doubt Elon Musk, for all his cleverness, actually ever learned the specifics on how to build a gimble control for his reusable rockets that can land themselves. Rather, he came up with the idea "I want my company to build reusable rockets to make space travel cheaper. Who are the rocket building experts in the field that I can hire to do that?" Then he went and hired them to work for SpaceX. He created a vision, then figured out who all he needed on his team.

Think about the greatest Pro football teams: each player has general knowledge of all the positions and what that position's task is, but each player specializes in his or her specific task. Travis Kelce can throw the football (and has on the occasional trick play), but he leaves that to Patrick Mahomes 99.95% of the time. Likewise, Patrick can run the ball, but he leaves that to Kelce... well... not quite that often. He runs too much for my wife's comfort (she's a huge Chiefs fan and freaks out he'll be injured any time he runs). You get the point.

Brad 20K

WHAT DID YOU CHANGE?

Several things:

1) I took the tools out of the trunk. I also sold my pick up truck which was only used for rentals. The only tool I carry with me now is a screw driver, because I've found it useful on occasions for a few other things. Also a pocket knife. I'm convinced everyone needs one of those, even if you don't own real estate.

2) I refused to follow the thinking that debt was the only way to get money to grow and instead focused on finding investing partners. This led me into circles of people who HAVE lots of money and the KNOWELDGE and EXPERTISE on ways to deploy it effectively. The relationship building has also led me to find top notch, trustworthy contractors who have done work for these investors.

3) Got more education on how to effectively structure deals. I credit the Mr. LL Conventions for this.

HOW DID YOU CHANGE?

This question is tied inextricably with the first one. Maybe a better question is "Why did I change?" I changed because I realized I wasn't hitting my goals and found the reason was that I was getting in my own way. I was missing the forest for the trees. Taking a step back helped me realize that many successful investors I know started exactly where I did at square 1, but some had grown spectacularly. Why hadn't I? The answer was clear: I was focused on the wrong things and trying to be all things to all people. That's a sure fire way to burn out and stay limited.

Reading books and articles. Talking to successful people. Asking them to shoot holes in my plans. Studying best practices. That's how I changed. Not by learning which brand of paint is better than another. Someone else already knows that and has time to keep up with the changing product offerings. I needed to let the experts be the experts in their field while I become an expert in my field: real estate investing.

Zero, congrats on giving up mowing. That was one of the first tasks I hired out. Got tired of coming home all sweaty with dog poop crusted shoes while my tenants were lounging in their units playing Call of Duty and deciding whether or not they were going to pay the rent this month. Turnover cleaning was the next task I hired out. Same reason... it's nasty, hot work and saves pennies. The time I saved I turned into screening for better tenants. Now I don't have nearly as many bad turnovers. So refocusing my efforts killed two birds with one stone: the better tenants I found are paying and not trashing the place at move out.

Bonanza, I'm excited to hear you're so close... less than 3 years to go! Brad once asked me when I wanted to retire. I said, "Oh, maybe by age 55." He responded, "Why not by age 50?" Mmm... why not? I asked myself. What would it take? How could I do it? Maybe you can ask yourself the same question and shave a 1 or 2 off your timeline. None of us are guaranteed the next 31 months. I have to say this one hits home to me closely. I work for a Fortune 500 company in IT. Great company! But... there was a man age 61 who had helped build the company up from when they first went publicly traded on the stock market until a few years after I started working there when he announced his retirement. He was easily a multi-millionaire because he bought stock at $5/share that was worth over $200/share. We had a big retirement party for him. He shared stories about the fun times back in the day when all we had were dial up modems at 300 bytes per second... now we have T-1 high speed lines transmitting billions of bytes of data per second. Yadda, yadda... Lots of stories were shared. They presented him with a very nice plaque and an expensive retirement gift. Everyone wished him well and shook his hand. He smiled the whole time and we all ate cake together.

He died the following weekend. Age 61. Worked 30 years for the company. Now to be clear, I don't think he regretted it. He enjoyed his job and his co-workers. But he also had plans to do other things that he never got to do. My point is we don't know if we have 31 months, 31 days, or even 31 minutes left. If you've got something you're aiming for, get there as soon as you can without sacrificing your faith, health, family, and friends in the process.

I don't mean to snub everyone else. Lots of great responses and I enjoyed reading them all, but I need to go take care of a few "day job" tasks. Taking my same advice given to Bonanza and working on making the "Big R" a sooner rather than later thing.

Well ... everyone's idea of "freedom" is different.

I left a six figure engineering gig at 45 yo and went full time into LL. THAT was my "freedom". Still managed to put 2 kids thru college ... still kept a waterfront vacation home.

AND I kept the tools in my truck. I love creating and puttering . Kitchen design, tiling, wood working specifically . That is my "freedom" ... working with my hands. Getting paid six-figures to sit in an office , I was a caged animal.

If you think you can't then you won't. If you think you can then you will.

Anyone can try and fail, only the prosperous will try again until they succeed.

Tryan... certainly. Freedom is what we make it. I would ask this though... let's say you throw your back out on a Mr Fix It job and are laid up in the hospital for 6 months. No lifting, no puttering. Would your business putter on?

Genuine question. I'm trying to make myself as integral to the GROWTH of my business, but less integral to the day to day... puttering along. Having adopted processes and outsources many day to day task, and finally getting onto a Professional PM software means if I get hit by the proverbial bus, my wife makes one call to a trusted local PM company and gives them account access to my Buildium software, and my business scarcely misses me.

This is something I tried to set up because we never know if we have 31 more years, 31 days, or 31 minutes.... I don't want my legacy to be chaos as folks try to figure out how Mr. Sid the DIY landlord did everything. Maybe military training has a part in this. We live with the assumption that we may die any moment, so if that were to happen could the mission still succeed because everyone knows what to do once "the man" is gone or out of commission? We learned in sergeant leadership school to make ourselves seamlessly replaceable.

Thank you Ken & Sid.

Definitely lots of good responses.

Hey Sid - As always, I love your passion / enthusiasm. Having a goal is half way to achieving it. The 31 months wraps up a number of factors. It gives me time to grow my Property Management (for others) business, time to grow my own properties (if I can finds some more) and allow easier access to loans via the W-2 income, and time to get the basement of my commercial property renovated and into production (exploring mid term rentals since hearing alisha merriman).

It also would coincide with being 59.5 and allow me to take money out of my 401K without penalties (although I'd have to pay taxes). I don't have much faith in the stock market and feel more comfortable with income producing properties. Historically I have made more in real estate than the stock market by a factor of 5.

Thanx Sid ... good food for thought for the younger folk. I "survived" the gauntlet you describe (in the HOOD no less). Bailed on the last one last July.

I think anyone who does their own repair/cleaning work has "close call" stories where they might have been injured.

I did not want to lose a finger to a saw or stitches on my head from a crawl space...a permanent scar or limp just to get a silly rental house ready.

What great info!

I am motivated to make bigger and better changes. I just hope that motivation doesn't wane.

Three empty places and two are major rehabs. I have a trashout guy lined up, depending on costs. I talked to the daughter of a friend who has interest in cleaning and possibly painting. She just bought and rehabbed her own house so she is pumped up for more. Problem is she is taking med classes which start back up in August. I doubt she will be long term cleaning toilets or slinging paint.

I have some extra cash sitting idle that I got from refi's. The plan was to use it to purchase more units. Maybe start with a flip then a hold. Rinse and repeat as needed. Maybe I should consider using a chunk of that on finding and testing people to work for me?

I did most of it myself for years and had no time and made lousy decisions on tenants. Could not make money. Finally decided to find and interview good plumbers, electricians, and handyman. SAVED MY LIFE! Last week I had high water bill (I get daily notifications). Called tenant, toilet was running. Plumber goes same morning and replaces handle and tightens the water supply. Paid him $135 for a $3 repair. Know what I was doing while he made the repair? I rented another property with a 12% rent increase from last year! I made my money back in the same month.

Had a tenant with no dryer heat. Checked the panel. No issues. Called electrician and he replaced the outlet. $140. Could I do it myself? Probably bit he diagnosed the issue, pronounced the service panel as good and the tenny trusts the "expert" more than me.

I now have an on call electrician, plumber, cleaning service for move outs, painter, and a small time contractor for upgrades. My rents have never been higher and the quality of the tenants has never been better.

Do I mow a yard occasionally or fix a mailbox or install a through the wall AC unit. Sure! But not often. I still work full time so time is of the essence.

D

Wow SID, you really got people thinking!

Some will think this idea is silly

BUT

My advice to every LL - your DREAM must be bigger than your problems.

People love to discourage others and "steal your DREAM".

Toilets and tenants will get you down.

The goal is not more properties the goal is the FREEDOM!!! they offer.

So EVERY DAY I do something to remind me, to touch, to smell, to experience WHY I do this - the reward for my efforts - the WHY - the REASON I put up with the problems.

BRAD

The vision is to make money, right? Money equals freedom. Money can lead to early retirement. Lead to vacations. Travel. Whatever your vision, I bet making more money is at the core of whatever you want from being a landlord.

In my situation, to make more money, I had to actually go backwards. I started hands off. Hired property managers. Managed the manager. Went thru 6 property managers in 4 yrs. Some grew too fast. One got in legal trouble. One was selling drugs in my apartment community while pocketing $1,000's in cash deposits and cash rents. He lasted 3 months before I fired him. Tenants were frustrated with the "manager of the month." I was frustrated with losing money, losing tenants, losing a rental reputation,.. all due to bad management. Over and over.

So I took over management. Wasn't that hard with the right software. And I immediately hired a full-time maintenance person. 3 years later, he got into drugs. He got fired. Hired another maintenance person. He got into chasing money. Started a remodeling business and never saw him again. Hired another maintenance person. He got cancer which re-shaped his life. (He survived - Amen!) After Covid, no one in my small town does maintenance any more at an affordable rate. No handymen for less than $50/hr. So guess who the new maintenance person is? Me. Yep. Going backwards again. I can't emphasize enough that small towns in America are losing skilled trades and FAST!! Because there are so few, supply and demand has led to really high wages. I'm thrilled for those in the trades making more money. But my small business can't afford to pay that type of hourly wage to tighten a loose door knob.

I have learned a ton about maintenance thanks to University U-Tube. I also learned how much I was getting ripped off by the "experts." How much I was over-paying. How some repairs made by the "professionals" should be outlawed.

After Covid, I now do most maintenance (no drains, hvac or mowing - that's for the pros). I do all make readies, all painting, all cleaning, even carpet cleaning. Let me repeat - this is not what I expected to be doing in my 60's. That said, my cashflow has NEVER been better. My goal is to make money right? My retention rate has NEVER been higher. Fewer turns is a bonus. The number of repairs and work orders have gone down dramatically because I get it done right the first time. We all lose money on call backs while maintenance people make money on call backs. Totally different philosophy. Do it right the first time. No one cares more than an owner about getting it right the first time. That's how you save a ton of money.

Years ago when I managed the manager, I worked on average 20 hrs a week. That included some business accounting, looking at new properties, making offers, inspections,.. working on the business. Many times, there was no cash return on those hours invested. Lots of hours actually wasted. Now, 15 yrs later, I'm done looking at properties. Done growing the business. I'm set. And I'm still working on average 20 hrs a week, but now doing light repairs, painting, cleaning,.. and guess what, it's not all that hard. We do it in our own houses.

So now I manage and maintain 38 units. All multifamily. Not what I was expecting, but by default AND with the goal of making the most $$$ with what I have, I have taken on more work. I'm fine with that when I look at the difference in cashflow. It's astonishing how much money I save!!!

A key distinction is this site is for "landlords" which we often define as smaller operations. Bootstrap businesses. Many of us are simply finding ways to build a better retirement. For those who want to create a business and grow to 100's, that's a big step beyond what most "landlords" have the time or interest to do. No matter how many units you have, you're going to have work and risk. Owning more properties may mean less work and but a lot more risk. Owner fewer properties may mean more work, but overall a lot less risk.

I want peace of mind and time relaxing outside with friends.

"Sid, I appreciate how you explain things. You are usually always pretty thorough and explain them well."

Thanks to rental income, I was able to decrease to part-time on my day job.

Like Sid i did stop doing these three things, ..

"giving up MOWING. ......Got tired of coming home all sweaty with dog poop crusted shoes while my tenants were lounging in their units playing Call of Duty and deciding whether or not they were going to pay the rent this month.

Turnover CLEANING was the next task I hired out. Same reason... it's nasty, hot work and saves pennies. The time I saved I turned into screening for better tenants....

April, Thank you, that was a lot of wisdom you shared. Wow, 38 profitable units and with little turnover!!

You wrote,

"I can't emphasize enough that small towns in America are losing SKILLED trades and FAST!!" and "I have learned a ton about maintenance thanks to University U-Tube. I also learned how much I was getting ripped off by the "experts." How much I was over-paying....."

University U-Tube can be great. It can also be the downfall of people that think they can do anything because they watched a pro do it in five minutes.

Back before the tube was so popular there was HGTV. I made a lot of deals because of people who loved watching that channel and thought they could flip a house in half an hour.

Those shows do have comedic value at times.

You know the show is providing a crew for them, plus the money they get from the show can't hurt. Then they have however long to get the work done, which is super condensed. Just like the cop/crime shows. The number of people that believe you can super enhance a gas station video is amazing.

Another thing that flip shows do that bugs me is they bring out the sledgehammer. I have seen so much stuff ruined that could otherwise be donated or even (gulp) kept in the house.