DYI Turnover
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DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Jun 10, 2023 10:47 PM
       DYI Turnover (by RB [TN]) Jun 10, 2023 11:33 PM
       DYI Turnover (by Ed [CA]) Jun 11, 2023 1:28 AM
       DYI Turnover (by MC [PA]) Jun 11, 2023 6:12 AM
       DYI Turnover (by zero [IN]) Jun 11, 2023 8:55 AM
       DYI Turnover (by MAT [PA]) Jun 11, 2023 9:04 AM
       DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Jun 11, 2023 9:06 AM
       DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Jun 11, 2023 9:41 AM
       DYI Turnover (by 6x6 [TN]) Jun 11, 2023 11:43 AM
       DYI Turnover (by plenty [MO]) Jun 11, 2023 12:08 PM
       DYI Turnover (by Small potatoes [NY]) Jun 11, 2023 12:30 PM
       DYI Turnover (by zero [IN]) Jun 11, 2023 12:34 PM
       DYI Turnover (by ed [CA]) Jun 11, 2023 12:35 PM
       DYI Turnover (by zero [IN]) Jun 11, 2023 12:47 PM
       DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Jun 11, 2023 3:52 PM
       DYI Turnover (by Sisco [MO]) Jun 11, 2023 5:08 PM
       DYI Turnover (by MC [PA]) Jun 11, 2023 6:24 PM
       DYI Turnover (by MC [PA]) Jun 11, 2023 6:31 PM
       DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Jun 11, 2023 7:09 PM
       DYI Turnover (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Jun 11, 2023 7:47 PM
       DYI Turnover (by MC [PA]) Jun 11, 2023 7:50 PM
       DYI Turnover (by Lynn [MA]) Jun 11, 2023 9:46 PM
       DYI Turnover (by MikeA [TX]) Jun 12, 2023 12:31 AM
       DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Jun 12, 2023 4:15 AM
       DYI Turnover (by MC [PA]) Jun 12, 2023 5:58 AM
       DYI Turnover (by zero [IN]) Jun 12, 2023 7:36 AM
       DYI Turnover (by zero [IN]) Jun 12, 2023 7:56 AM
       DYI Turnover (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Jun 14, 2023 10:08 AM
       DYI Turnover (by S i d [MO]) Jun 14, 2023 10:13 AM
       DYI Turnover (by 6x6 [TN]) Jun 14, 2023 6:22 PM
       DYI Turnover (by Ryan24 [MD]) Jun 16, 2023 6:03 PM

DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Posted on: Jun 10, 2023 10:47 PM

I had an apartment turnover in mid April. The tenant had been there about four years and the previous tenant had been there around 10 years and I did not upgrade between the two. So basically, it had been 16 years since any work had been done, so the place was quite tired. Except for the flooring, I was unable to get someone to do the work when I wanted, so I decided to do it myself. Over several weekends, I painted/touched up the entire apartment. I wisely decided to match the existing color scheme which saved a ton of time. There was a fair amount of wall repair that had to be done first. I had to sheetrock and spackle one wall that had no support behind the paneling (paneling had been nailed to studs with no wall behind it and it was flimsy). I was planning on painting the tired kitchen cabinets but that was going to require a lot of time and effort. I decided to re-stain them instead. They came out great after a few hours of work. I swapped out the toilet and bathroom vanity, installed a new kitchen countertop, installed new faucets in the kitchen and bath, painted and/or swapped out ceiling tiles. Although I could do it, Iíve decided to hire out some of the electrical work and the flooring. It would probably take another couple of weekends to knock that out if I were to do it. An experienced professional will have the flooring done in 2-3 days or about half the time it would take me. I put some flooring down in a bedroom in my personal residence and had to take a break due to sore hams from the constant up and down. Next time I do flooring, I plan on doing a lot of it from a rolling chair and pre-cutting some of the planks to minimize the up and down and being on my knees.

With me being a basic desk jockey and not accustomed to doing this stuff, Iím feeling pretty proud of myself and Iím surprised that I rather liked doing this stuff. Also, itís nice to not feel so reliant on others when they canít get to you. Iím figuring I probably saved myself about $ 3,000-3,500.


DYI Turnover (by RB [TN]) Posted on: Jun 10, 2023 11:33 PM

I heard that. --24.183.xxx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by Ed [CA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 1:28 AM

Good for you. I like doing the work on my rentals myself and am pretty sure it's made my portfolio grow far faster than it would have if I had hired the work out. Plus, I find contractors take shortcuts, hide mistakes, do stuff wrong and I end up fixing their problems anyway. I'm probably pickier than most, but I like hearing people saw "wow" when they walk through a unit I rehabbed. I do a lot of easy and fun upgrades as well .... can lights in kitchens and hallways, fans with lights in bedrooms, granite kitchen counters with tall kitchen sink faucets, granite counters in bathrooms, dual pane windows and sliders, and lots more. Only thing I don't do is large texture jobs and I don't lay carpet. --108.201.xx.xx

DYI Turnover (by MC [PA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 6:12 AM

Done alot myself as well. Drawbacks are I can't count my time and a pro could do it faster. I would still nit pick thier work and it would cost me a lot more. You do what you need to in LLing. --73.230.xxx.xx

DYI Turnover (by zero [IN]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 8:55 AM

I enjoy doing the work myself. With wages being what they are now I save money even when the place sits empty a little longer. It helps that I have background in a lot of the maintenance tasks.

My problem is when I have more than one empty at a time that needs worked on. Right now I am at three empty places. I can only work on one until the evictions go thru. Then I will jump to the easiest to complete place and go from there.

Having more than one open also makes me not want to do as much on the turnover due to time constraints. I tiled the bath in the last one. Planned to tile in the kitchen as well, but I knew I had others coming up so I painted and got it filled.

GKARL, One of the best things you can do is get a nice pair of knee pads. I was too manly in my youth to use them. I pay the price for that on every floor I work on. For the LVP work I now have a shear that I put felt pads on. I lay boxes of material around and stage my work accordingly. Sliding the shear and tools around is so much easier on the back and knees.

Congrats on the DIY. Remember that even if you don't do it all yourself you know what needs done and that helps when trying to hire someone else.


DYI Turnover (by MAT [PA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 9:04 AM

I wrestle with this often, although tend to land on the side of doing my own work since Iím a small time landlord and donít have plans to grow. The the thing that bugs me most is contractors who wonít spend 20 minutes to make a job last 20 years. Theyíll save that 20 minutes instead, and then the project will only last 10 years. I canít count how many times Iíve come across that, and who knows how many more times thatís happened and I didnít even know. --107.123.xx.xx

DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 9:06 AM

Zero, I use knee pads. My problem was sore hams from getting up and down to cut. I clearly need to set up differently to avoid that. I plan on watching how the flooring guy sets up. He's got some carpet to remove as well. I generally don't like removing carpet and staples which is one reason I hired him --209.122.xx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 9:41 AM

Mat, I'm not sure how much farther I want to take it either as far as growth is concerned. I'm good where I'm at but I also realize that me doing this sort of thing isn't sustainable but to be honest, I thank God I'm healthy enough to do it plus I'm learning new skills. --172.58.xxx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by 6x6 [TN]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 11:43 AM

My major rehab project is taking a very long time. I have done most things myself to include rewiring the whole house, replumbing the whole house, adding a closet, redoing everything from foundation to the roof. If I had hired all of this out it would have cost me at least 100K.

My neighbors just had a small rehab job done. The only thing they did outside was add a couple of security lights and halfway repair a couple of window trims. They didn't paint the outside at all even though it needs it. All they basically did was rewire and they replaced the water supply lines, moved the laundry into another room, and redone the floors. They didn't replace or do anything with the home maid kitchen cabinets that look bad. They painted the inside walls without doing much to repair some bad spots. Over 60K.

If I do it myself and it has taken over a year, I saved over 100K. How much would I have made in rent in that year? Not even close to that much. That is why I am still DIY, as well as what Zero mentioned. --73.190.xxx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 12:08 PM

The portal DeWalt chop saw is a blessing! We also like the portable work table. And there is satisfaction in doing what you can yourself. And there are smart times when hiring it out is totally cost saving. As long as you can , count it as exercise and have fun! Remember to stop for networking and my lunch, can't be all work or it becomes your job! --172.59.xxx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by Small potatoes [NY]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 12:30 PM

I was trending towards taking the tools out of the truck, but trustworthy and skilled help is hard to find. Basic labor is up to 20/hr. Contractors irk me so much with their shenanigans, I'd rather do it myself and do it correctly. Where I am stuck on a current job is finding a plumber who will work w a permit and has time. Only one I found wanted about 5k to rough in new bath n laundry and swap out sewer line in basement below. The sewer is already severed from the main into the earth by pvc, so that is not hard work. Part I don't have a handle on is the price of pvc. I have not got the hang of click lock flooring, but I have a guy for that, just have to double check his layout before he wastes product. --172.59.xxx.xx

DYI Turnover (by zero [IN]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 12:34 PM

GKARL, gotcha, Look into the shear for making the cuts. slide it along with you to avoid all the ups and downs. I also have an oscillating tool for making cuts. A good pair of tin snips is another must have.

I used to get up, go to the saw, make the cut, go back and lay the board. Now I don't have to get up nearly as often.

Plenty, I agree about times when it is smarter to hire the work done. I have another roof that needs done. I am not in the business of roofing any more. Would take me a month when my roofer can get it done in a day. --107.147.xx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by ed [CA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 12:35 PM

There are new roller-knee pads that come in several different designs (check amazon). I haven't used them yet, but I will on my next big laminate installation job. --108.201.xx.xx

DYI Turnover (by zero [IN]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 12:47 PM

Small, I think there is a fine line between being hands off and hands on. Have to consider what is value added.

Just this week I moved mowing to someone else. It only takes a day each week, but that is a day I am not rehabbing.

I am fortunate to have background in almost all the skilled trades I might need. Not an expert and definitely not fast, but I get by.

My saving grace is that we do not require licensed help in my area for permitting. I have a plumber who is licensed if I need him, but that isn't often.

When a couple distribution centers started paying people off the streets $20+ an hour I noticed that all my help dried up. I can't justify paying that kind of money to someone who knows nothing. Times are changing but I can't bump my rents enough to afford hiring and training people at those prices. --107.147.xx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 3:52 PM

Zero, is the shear you're referring to the vinyl floor cutter that looks like a guillotine? --172.58.xxx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by Sisco [MO]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 5:08 PM

GKarl, you mentioned that you worked several weekends. I suspect that several weeks passed without collecting any rent. There were many other taskís involved in running and growing your business that werenít done either.

Tell me again about that $3500 savings.


DYI Turnover (by MC [PA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 6:24 PM

Currently fixing up the last rental to sell. These people never washed the walls, ceing fans or cabinets. Amazing the toilets and fridge are clean. As usual cleaning supplies were left. They did buy several items that needed replacement but one excuse after the other why it wasn't done. They were given 60 days notice so I have zero tolerance for "ran out of time". Hoping it hits the market next weekend. This is after painting for 3 days and only halfway done. Cleaning needs done. Not looking for perfection, just to make it look a little better. Could have gone "as is" but hoping the painting,repairs and cleaning will get me more. --73.230.xxx.xx

DYI Turnover (by MC [PA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 6:31 PM

Could have farmed it out but can't tell how others paint and cleaning people arehit or miss. Will get one of the kids to do it and pay them. I am tired of dealing with people. --73.230.xxx.xx

DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 7:09 PM

>>>>I suspect that several weeks passed without collecting any rent. There were many other taskís involved in running and growing your business that werenít done either.<<<<

I get this argument, however, there are times that it doesn't work. As I mentioned, me doing this over the long haul isn't sustainable. There are four kitchens and bathroom that need to be installed in this same building that were hired out along with other work. Depending on the particulars, I make a judgment what I'll hire and what I'll do myself. Initially, I was looking to hire for this but was unable to get the help when it was needed. There's a balance that must be struck here IMO. If I had 100 units, then the approach is different.


DYI Turnover (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 7:47 PM

For those who purchased Jeffery's course - what do you like about his turn over check sheets. It is laid out as a how to guide so you can do the work or you can delegate it out.

I would encourage everyone to customize that form or better yet - build your own. You never know if there is a two ay task that you can do that will pay you even more. In such cases, you can leverage your time --24.101.xxx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by MC [PA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 7:50 PM

Rent was paid in my case. We gave the notice to vacate. Time to move on. --73.230.xxx.xx

DYI Turnover (by Lynn [MA]) Posted on: Jun 11, 2023 9:46 PM

I did 3 turnovers in the last 2 months. My helper hasnít been available so itís been a little tougher and longer to get done. The first one was a easy turnover but last two were a lot more involved --71.174.xxx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by MikeA [TX]) Posted on: Jun 12, 2023 12:31 AM

I get the satisfaction aspect and the need to learn. While I don't mean to be discouraging, don't be fooled into thinking it is saving you money. It's been sitting vacant for 2 months and you still have more to do. If market rent is $1500 you have just broke even on the costs and paid yourself $0/hour. Get some help and get 'er done! Vacant properties don't produce good returns. That's why vacancy rate is one of the key metrics that the big guys look at for opportunities to improve returns. --209.205.xxx.xx

DYI Turnover (by GKARL [PA]) Posted on: Jun 12, 2023 4:15 AM

Mike, that presumes that I could have gotten someone to do the stuff when I wanted it done and that quality tenants are easy to come by. Available folks to do the work were at least a month out. It takes 45 to 60 days to find a decent tenant. My vacancy time would have been roughly the same. I'm figuring I'm ahead. --209.122.xx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by MC [PA]) Posted on: Jun 12, 2023 5:58 AM

I am with GKARL. If I have to schedule, it puts me behind anyway plus the pay out. We all do things a different way for different reasons. I am all about saving money if possible but not at certain costs. Currently we are just trying to make it more marketable. --73.230.xxx.xx

DYI Turnover (by zero [IN]) Posted on: Jun 12, 2023 7:36 AM


Yes it is like that. They have different models. Mine is just a shear. Some have a throat that you can make cuts length wise as well as the short cuts.

I got it at an auction for cheap as a test. I love it. Has a stone to keep the blade sharp. Haven't used it yet. I have put a lot of LVP down as well as maybe 300 sf of engineered hardwood. It didn't really like that, but it kept going.

Beats running to the saw or getting a square and knife then snapping every piece.


DYI Turnover (by zero [IN]) Posted on: Jun 12, 2023 7:56 AM

Regarding hiring it out vs DIY:

I have maybe two people that I trust to do a good job. They are both tied up and unable to break free for me right now. Last I checked the one guy charges $25/hr. Simple math makes that $200 a day so 1k per week. Last place I finished rents for $675/mo.

I needed to put carpet down which he doesn't do. I also had a lot of painting to do. I did hang one interior door, but that took almost no time.

The next apartment I have coming up will need carpet and paint touch up. I was going to put LVP down and some tile in the kitchen but might hold off because I will have a couple more bigger jobs coming up as well. Poor timing.

At this stage I am looking for ways to get things done faster, but if I am shelling out 1k per week it needs to be value added.

I have gotten big enough that having an empty doesn't hurt as bad. I have not reached the point where I can hire everything out just yet.

When will that time come? I don't know. I guess it's baby steps for me at this point. I am actively moving forward. Talking to people and learning from the convention has helped a lot. If I get an appliance or HVAC call I turn it over to the companies I use. Saves me the trip and they can diagnose better than I can. Didn't used to be that way.

When I get to the really big rehab I am hoping that one of the guys I use will actually be able to help. I can't find grunt labor either. One guy talked to me about going to the soup kitchen for help. He also warned me to not leave anything of value laying around. I can't live like that either. --107.147.xx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Jun 14, 2023 10:08 AM


You are smart cookie and can recognize what you can do and when you can do it. I don't doubt one bit that you saved the money you think you did. If you had to wait on someone, you might have lost even more rent, costing you even more.

So many folks learn that they don't know what they don't know. --24.101.xxx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Jun 14, 2023 10:13 AM

I'm late to the game (back from FREEEEEDOM in Cancun with the fam).

I'm siding with Sisco on this one. We did not get into this biz to be DIY handymen: we are landlords and investors. Our #1 job is allocating resources efficiently to create a profit by providing people goods and services they need and want.

I remember when once-upon-a-time I did all my own work. I used the same reason I see here: "I don't like being dependent on anyone... I can't find anyone... I saved $X".

Then Brad20K and Jeffrey taught me differently.

Imagine Warren Buffet or any other big shot saying they had to fix the AC in their office themselves because they couldn't find anyone, or they didn't like being dependent on anyone, or they saved $X? Hoo boy! Never would that happen in 1000 years!

As investors we must constantly be improving the following:

1) Delegate, delegate, delegate!

2) Build a trusted contractor list 3-5 people so there is always someone available.

3) Make the right investing decisions. The property you buy right makes you 10x the money saved on DIY tricks and tools.

Regarding item #3: I'm glad you saved $3000 - $5000... but what was your opportunity cost? Did you miss out on a deals worth $10s or $100s of thousands in profit because you were busy sweating on your hands and knees? How many great deals did you miss while trying to get your grout lines or vinyl planks lined up straight?

Even 1 good deal is usually worth $50,000 or more in the long run. That's just on a dinky little 2-bed bungalow! Imagine if you were scoping out $1 million commercial properties!

My story in brief: I used to have 12 units and DIY'd almost everything that wasn't HVAC or high voltage electric. I cleaned, I floored, I tried patching drywall and wondered why I never could get any traction.

Then lo and behold: I started doing what the Pros do and our growth and profits exploded. Today we manage 54 units and I spend maybe 1-2 hours a week on it. But how?

I spend 30-45 minutes a week keeping in touch with current contractors and getting in touch with new, solid, reliable, fair and honest contractors.

"But no such thing exist!" I hear you say.

"Yes they do!" I reply. I have 15-18 of them at any given time. Everything from electricians to HVAC to handymen.

How did I get them? Do I live in a magic land of fairy dust and unicorns?

Nope, I spend time cultivating my lists. I network with highly respected business pros who give me referrals for reliable, fair, honest, and reasonably priced contractors.

How much time in a week do you spend cultivating solid business relationships? If the answer is less than 1 hour, that's why you can't grow and can't find anyone. Good contractors, like good tenants and good properties, take time to find, screen, and get into your list of good business partners. If you aren't spending at least as much time finding good contractors as you are good tenants, that's going to hurt you long term.

Now please understand that I get where you're coming from, because I used to be in the exact same mindset. It's your business and you are 100% in the right to run it however you want, obviously.

But... if you want to grow. If you want to have knees left when you're in your 70s. If you want more freedom to go on trips with your family while your rentals keep humming along like a well-oiled machine with little to no involvement from you (i.e. I spent 15 minutes on rentals my entire 6-day trip... just checking balances) then you MUST change your mindset and your game plan.

I've given you the best tip I ever received: spend time working ON your business, not IN your business. Take the tools out of the trunk. Grow your business by investing time in quality people, not tools. --184.4.xx.xxx

DYI Turnover (by 6x6 [TN]) Posted on: Jun 14, 2023 6:22 PM

Sid, I appreciate how you explain things. You are usually always pretty thorough and explain them well. I may not always completely understand, just do to lack of experience or what have you, and I seem to be slow at the willingness to implement some things, although not sure why.

You are absolutely right about spending a lot of money in tools and a lot of time to learn the task. I would like to ask you a few questions in regard to this. I hope that I phrase them correctly.

At what point do you know that you are working on your business instead of in it?

If you still manage your own properties but hire out everything else, are you working on your business or in it?

Does the answer to that question depend on how many rentals that a person has?

Also, does the answer to that question depend on how much experience that a person has?

I like working with my hands more so then paperwork, however, I also like the idea of not being so stressed trying to figure out how I am going to get a major rehab done because I am literally wearing all of the hats more or less.

What made you end up breaking that cycle and habit?

What made it sink in for you?


DYI Turnover (by Ryan24 [MD]) Posted on: Jun 16, 2023 6:03 PM

Good for you GKARL! It is very rewarding to do your own work. I find that I do enjoy doing the work as well but there are so many other things to do I cannot take the time to do most of it. Also, one thing to think about is the lost time in rents. If your unit can rent for $1,200 a month, that is $40 a day for every day you can get it rented sooner. If you can save a month's worth of time and get it re-rented a month sooner, that is $1,200 you can justify spending on additional labor on top of the materials you are buying. Plus, no sore knees, no long weekends and you can spend that time improving your tenants' experience or looking for the next income producing rental! --73.135.xx.xxx

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