Ownerless properties?

I had an interesting conversation with a drug addict this week. He told me that if an owner dies and there's no mortgage and nobody to inherit, a house can sit vacant for years until it's finally foreclosed on for back taxes.

In that case, who owns the property before it's foreclosed on? Would anyone be harmed if someone were to take possession, start paying taxes, and turn it into a productive asset? Is there an ethical or moral dilemma here, or would it be providing a service to society? --65.28.xxx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Deanna [TX]) Posted on: May 14, 2023 5:36 PM
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It would be hard to sell in the future. We've passed on purchasing houses where the heirs haven't bothered to probate it, so it was still under the deceased owner's name.

If you weren't sure that there were no heirs, and you ended up taking the adverse possession route and sinking $50k into a renovation, and then five years later, heirs show up and lay claim--- you'd be out of luck.

In a more urban district, it might fall through the cracks, but our appraisal district usually has a pretty good idea about the circumstances and story behind every tax foreclosure that crosses their desk.

--137.118.xx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: May 14, 2023 5:51 PM
Message:

The crackhead was correct,it can easily sit until it gets foreclosed for taxes.You would do an adverse possession,each state has a different length f time,my state is 20 years and there is always an heir if you look hard enough.

Deanna,my attorney can do a sale with title insurance without probabe being done based on the dead person clearly doesnt have enough assets to owe tax for inheritance purposes.I have to do extra documentation to document any other heirs etc but makes low priced purchases doable --74.77.xx.xx

Ownerless properties? (by MikeA [TX]) Posted on: May 14, 2023 6:20 PM
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Who owns it? The estate of that person until it's distributed to their heirs.

What you are describing is called adverse possession or more commonly known as "squatters rights". It varies by state but basically you move in and start taking care of it and after decades file for quiet title and get the deed although there is at least one Texas case where property was returned after 22 year so that isn't always guaranteed. Most states have a requirement that you have "honestly entered and held possession in the belief that the land is his or her own" (as it's worded in Texas). So, what is your basis for proving that you believe you own it?

The problem of heirs. Each state handles it differently, but it usually goes spouse/children, siblings/children, grandparents/children and so on up the owners linage until an heir is found. In almost all cases there is an heir, albeit they may not know they are an heir until someone does the work to find them. That will likely be uncovered when you file for quiet title after your adverse possession. I guess you would get to use their property until that happens but that doesn't seem ethical.

There used to be attorney's who would petition the courts in the name of unknown-heirs to probate with the judge granting their fee out of the estate proceeds and to find an heir, don't know if they still do that.

--209.205.xxx.xx

Ownerless properties? (by Nicole [PA]) Posted on: May 14, 2023 7:42 PM
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Certainly state specific but in Pennsylvania, it wouldn't be decades and would never come close to approaching the adverse possession time frame (which is 20 or 21 years here I believe).

Right now, the 2021 unpaid tax properties are going up for sale the end of 2023.

If someone just pays the taxes and municipal charges but doesn't own the property, it can take a while but at some point, someone will appear or be discovered and claim the property. The chances of folks owning free and clear properties with no close family, friends, acquaintances, etc., are slim. Yes, there are people who don't know anyone but the coroner is going to do an investigation to find family and they will go through those friends and acquaintances who generally can point them in the right direction. Would unjust enrichment come into play and they'd have to pay you back? Who knows. Would you have to pay them the rent you collected? Who knows. In other words, this is easier said than done although I am sure it does happen. --98.237.xxx.xx

Ownerless properties? (by 6x6 [TN]) Posted on: May 14, 2023 8:12 PM
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What led you to having a conversation with a drug addict? --73.190.xxx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Don [PA]) Posted on: May 14, 2023 8:32 PM
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Nicole- the coroner does not investigate to locate heirs. Also, in philly many properties in undesirable areas can go ten years or more with unpaid taxes before a tax sale is set. This is less common as gentrification has brought in many more buyers. It used to be, someone had to come forward and put up the minimum bid of $300 to get ta delinquent house put up for sale. They had that policy because there were/are a huge number of delinquent properties and the vast majority of them nobody wants. In pen a relatives as close as second cousins can claim inheritance. What's more, creditors can open an estate. --73.194.xxx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Deanna [TX]) Posted on: May 14, 2023 10:07 PM
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Ken, yes, we offered to help them get it straightened out, for just the cost of the filing fees. They weren't interested in putting up a few hundred dollars to straighten out the paperwork enough to make the sale. Instead, it sat for a few years-- they recently sold it someone who didn't care as much. --137.118.xx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Scott [IN]) Posted on: May 15, 2023 9:18 AM
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Robin, I like the way you think. Squat, install tenants, pay taxes for 10 years, then file for possession. Put just enough money into repairs and maintenance to keep it rentable. Liability insurance only. Make a profit while the clock ticks.

I've never done this, but it seems like a great idea. --107.141.xx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: May 15, 2023 9:38 AM
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Deanna,usually with people like that i pay everything including attorney,filing fees etc and put $1000-$2000 in there pocket.They wont take anything out of there pocket when they can just walk away

Scott,if you are going to do have someone give you a quit claim deed,could be anyone,then you have a deed in your name and get a normal landlord insurance policy and if it burns down you just got paid for the place --74.77.xx.xx

Ownerless properties? (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Posted on: May 15, 2023 10:35 AM
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I'd like to know just exactly how you find out there are no heirs? The house sitting empty and uncared for has nothing to do with the number of heirs there might be. --76.178.xxx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Nicole [PA]) Posted on: May 15, 2023 10:55 AM
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I'm going to disagree with you Don. Philadelphia is it's own little fifedom compared to most of the state.

Over here, in the counties I pay attention to, the coroner absolutely investigates to locate family.

As for 10 year tax sale time frames, nope. 2021 going for sale later this spring and the remainder this fall. The ones that don't sell/nobody wants go into the repository (?). --98.237.xxx.xx

Ownerless properties? (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: May 15, 2023 12:34 PM
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The place absolutely has an owner - the question is will the owner notice not having control of all the assets. From a business stand point, that crackhead might be your best bird dog.

If an investor can look past the ownership piece - ask yourself this question. If I could collect rent for five to 15 years, and the only thing you had to do was to pay someone else's taxes - would collecting five to 15 years of cash flow be worth it?

Around here that means paying two to 2.5 months of rent in taxes and collecting 12 months of income. I would consider it - but not to willing to dump that much into upgrading the place.

--24.101.xxx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by tryan [MA]) Posted on: May 15, 2023 4:25 PM
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Seems a lot easier - and less risky - to just pick it up at the tax sale. --198.168.xx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Tarheel T [NC]) Posted on: May 15, 2023 9:44 PM
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Ken do you mean get a qcd from someone you know doesnt have any relationship to the decadent or interest in the property? --97.82.xxx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: May 15, 2023 9:59 PM
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Tarheel T, yes,if someone was going to take a property and attempt to hold it 20 years and claim adverse possession have someone,anyone give you a quit claim deed,a quit claim deed says i am giving you whatever interest i have in the property,whether i have any or not,this way if anyone asks if you own the house or have any right to collect rent etc you have a deed in to your name,that would be all that 99% of the people would know is you have a deed in your name so you own it.If you are going to try this consult with your attorney as i am not one and would not try this myself but it would be interesting to see how it plays out.I believe it could be done with the right property,most attorneys would say no way dont do it but i think if pushed they would admit they just dont think most people could deal with it if it got sticky.I wouldnt try it because i am in a small area and i think if i got caught even if i didnt get in any trouble everyone would say i tried to steal a house and i dont need that reputation --74.77.xx.xx

Ownerless properties? (by Deanna [TX]) Posted on: May 15, 2023 11:15 PM
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I had a house I bought at tax sale. About a month afterwards, the former owners "sold" it to a single mom via quitclaim deed, but she wasn't sophisticated enough to realize they had no rights to sell. We noticed about two weeks later that someone was living in our house. Fortunately, the former owner had left her copy of the letter she'd received in Feb warning about the auction in Aug, and I'd grabbed a photo of it. So we had proof they were acting in bad faith. That helped us pressure them into giving her her money back. She was still pretty devastated, though, because she thought she was finally on the road to homeownership, but realized she had been deliberately scammed.

It's why we always do a title search and close through the title company. Not just for our peace of mind, but to also keep our reputations clean.

--137.118.xx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Scott [IN]) Posted on: May 16, 2023 10:47 AM
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Robin, I did a quick search of WI adverse possession requirements. One of those is "exclusive and continuous possession: you cannot share possession with others, and must be in possession of the land for an uninterrupted period of time."

Installing tenants would probably violate that requirement. --107.141.xx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: May 16, 2023 1:57 PM
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Scott, check with an attorney but i do not think renting to tenants would be a problem,you are collecting rent so you might be alright --74.77.xx.xx

Ownerless properties? (by Robin [WI]) Posted on: May 16, 2023 7:39 PM
Message:

"What led you to having a conversation with a drug addict?"

He was poking around a pile of trash in the driveway of a house I'd just bought at a sheriff's sale. I thought he might be a good source of information about the property and the neighborhood. He was! --104.230.xxx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: May 17, 2023 12:17 AM
Message:

Robin,

I listened thru a talk where the guy was grabbing and renting out vacant homes while no one was laying attention. When the estate’s attys circled around he just told the renters “Oh well! See ya later!”

THIS is a huge reason I like Jeffrey’s Convention - he vets the speakers and is careful who he allows.

BRAD --73.103.xxx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Scott [IN]) Posted on: May 17, 2023 10:09 AM
Message:

Ken, I agree that nothing is stopping you from installing tenants and collecting rent. But by not personally and continuously living on the property as required by WI, the right to claim ownership after 10 years is forfeited.

To Brad's point, if I ever did this, it would be in a way that I could quickly remove tenants (or pass them on) when the rightful owner eventually showed up. That owner would benefit greatly from my maintenance, repairs, and especially property tax payments. Around here, the County Treasurer slaps a lien on a property just 1 year after a missed payment. At that point, it goes to the tax sale. By doing the Squat and Rent, I could very well be saving the rightful owner from a total loss of his property to the stinkin Taxman.

Robin, like anything else, the ethical/moral outcome of this endeavor would depend on how you choose to do it. --107.141.xx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by 6x6 [TN]) Posted on: May 17, 2023 6:48 PM
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Thank you Robin.

The fact that this guy is a drug addict and knows that you have an empty house right now would cause me concern. --73.190.xxx.xxx

Ownerless properties? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: May 17, 2023 8:56 PM
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Scott,i do not believe that is a requirement in my state but it could be a problem there especially if the powers that be dont want you to succeed at this --74.77.xx.xx

Ownerless properties? (by Susan [FL]) Posted on: May 18, 2023 5:37 PM
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Ha, funny you ask. We have just that thing happening in our hood.

Guy would always let taxes go until the last minute, 3 years here in Fl, before it goes to auction. Pay all the rears off, and begin again over and over, never did a thing to the house or property as far a maintenance, finally wife left and he died. Trees are literally laying on the house, garage door bowed, it once was a beautiful house, until he moved in. Heirs have not probated, came in an took everything that was of value, left the house to continue to rot. At this point the best thing that could happen is for someone to plow it down. It's a fire hazard. County Code looks the other way. Contact with Heirs go unreturned even certified. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Who does it belong to? Good question. --142.196.xxx.xx

Ownerless properties? (by Susan [FL]) Posted on: May 18, 2023 5:37 PM
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Ha, funny you ask. We have just that thing happening in our hood.

Ownerless properties? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: May 19, 2023 2:58 PM
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Susan, not much code can do,cant take heirs to court.My attorney can close a deal like this with no probate,he does it based on the owner didnt have enough money to owe federal tax. he prefers it to be 2 years past the owners death.Sometimes you have to know what to ask in order to get an attorney or title company to do it --74.77.xx.xx

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