WWYD (by Marcia Voigt [WI]) Apr 25, 2023 9:40 PM|
WWYD (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Apr 25, 2023 10:18 PM
WWYD (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 25, 2023 10:23 PM
WWYD (by plenty [MO]) Apr 25, 2023 10:31 PM
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Apr 25, 2023 10:34 PM
WWYD (by Small potatoes [NY]) Apr 25, 2023 10:38 PM
WWYD (by plenty [MO]) Apr 25, 2023 10:51 PM
WWYD (by Jason [VA]) Apr 26, 2023 12:35 AM
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Apr 26, 2023 4:29 AM
WWYD (by MC [PA]) Apr 26, 2023 6:28 AM
WWYD (by Vee [OH]) Apr 26, 2023 6:55 AM
WWYD (by Steve [MA]) Apr 26, 2023 7:07 AM
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Apr 26, 2023 7:18 AM
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Apr 26, 2023 7:28 AM
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Apr 26, 2023 7:28 AM
WWYD (by Steve [MA]) Apr 26, 2023 8:03 AM
WWYD (by plenty [MO]) Apr 26, 2023 8:34 AM
WWYD (by DJ [VA]) Apr 26, 2023 8:44 AM
WWYD (by plenty [MO]) Apr 26, 2023 8:48 AM
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Apr 26, 2023 9:02 AM
WWYD (by Small potatoes [NY]) Apr 26, 2023 10:01 AM
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Apr 26, 2023 10:09 AM
WWYD (by Ken [NY]) Apr 26, 2023 12:47 PM
WWYD (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 26, 2023 1:10 PM
WWYD (by Allym [NJ]) Apr 26, 2023 1:21 PM
WWYD (by Mapleaf18 [NY]) Apr 26, 2023 1:47 PM
WWYD (by MC [PA]) Apr 26, 2023 4:02 PM
WWYD (by 6x6 [TN]) Apr 26, 2023 8:35 PM
WWYD (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 26, 2023 9:23 PM
WWYD (by 6x6 [TN]) Apr 26, 2023 9:39 PM
WWYD (by Nellie [ME]) May 2, 2023 7:28 PM
WWYD (by zero [IN]) May 3, 2023 7:43 AM
WWYD (by Marcia Voigt [WI]) Posted on: Apr 25, 2023 9:40 PM
some of you may remember me posting about choosing between 2 tenants last year. One was an attorney and the other one was a manager and had been at her job for 20 years and her previous two apartments for 7-8 years each. Well, back in March, she gave me notice to move stating that she didn't want new neighbors every couple of months (even though I told her when she moved in I rented the upper unit to travel nurses) and she worked from home 2 days a week and the noise from the upstairs tenants walking on the floor bothered her. She felt she needed an upper apartment. So now she is moved out and she had paid through April 30, 2023. I sent her a text a couple days ago telling her that the oven and cooktop were still dirty and there was a little vaccuuming that had to be done. Also, she did not return the check in inspection sheet to me when she moved in. She asked me to meet her down there to do a final walk through and so she could return the keys. I told her a long as the oven grates were shiny (as they were upon move in) and the cook top that she could just leave the keys on the counter and if she needed access again, I would leave the door unlocked for her. So she now sent me a text stating that she is done but she has the keys and will keep them until I confirm with her that things are left satisfactorily and that she will be receiving her full deposit back. It is crystal clear, that she wants to be in control of this situation. There are 2 doors for her to access. One has a keypad lock on and the other one just has a deadbolt. The keypad one is easy as I just have to recode that. I don't want this to escalate into an unsafe situation or anything of the sort, but again, she feels like she has to be in control. I could threaten to make her pay for May rent if she chooses to keep the keys or just change the deadbolt or ?????? Part of me feels as though she has the reigns by keeping the keys. Suggestions on what to say? --75.86.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Apr 25, 2023 10:18 PM
Renting is a people business. Your resident is a crab.
Don’t take any of her complaints personally.
The thing about people moving in and out - pfft! That’s just a cheap excuse to cover her own problems.
Fix this: NEVER rely on a res completing the Move In Inspection form. My judge says it is more valuable than the lease. It and your 100+ move in photos are your ONLY defense when they lie saying “It was stained when I moved in.”
I do the walk-through myself, before they arrive. If they see something only I will write on the form. I do not walk them around the house allowing them to nitpick. They signed the form. It is stapled in my lease so it Is not forgotten or lost.
Stay in control.
WWYD (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 25, 2023 10:23 PM
"the oven and cooktop were still dirty and there was a little vaccuuming that had to be done. "
If you are satisfied that you are right to deduct from the deposit, then why haven't you done it and moved on?
Financial details of a departing tenant are generally pretty cut-and-dried. Does WI OR your lease have any standard for what level of cleanliness is due on move-out?
Sounds to me that you are getting into a level of childishness in worrying about who has the upper hand, instead of just worrying about getting your apartment cleaned and re-rented. You MUST know that you can charge the deposit for the REASONABLE cost of making the oven grates shiny and vacuuming whatever needs o be vacuumed (subject to review bu judge). So why are you making such a fuss over such trivia?
Given your control attitude, I can see why she needs to leverage the possibility that you will STILL not be satisfied with the apartment. It all seems pretty childish to me. Why can't you settle this like adults?
WWYD (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Apr 25, 2023 10:31 PM
You wrote: So she now sent me a text stating that she is done but she has the keys and will keep them until I confirm with her that things are left satisfactorily and that she will be receiving her full deposit back.
**** Just accept this. Text her RECEIVED, your security deposit will be returned according to state law. And then go change the locks. Rekey or whatever you do. If your lease addresses the key issue then charge her for that. And any cleaning not done. And do this according to your written agreement and your state laws
Stop requiring her to do anything. Just run your business. Stop giving your power away. --172.59.xxx.xx
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Posted on: Apr 25, 2023 10:34 PM
MOshe (CA). When I checked the apartment after she said was was completely moved out and cleaned, I noticed the oven and cooktop still dirty. It was then that I gave her this information and gave her the opportunity to remedy the situation and make it like it was when she moved in as that is what my lease states. Now she has remedied the situation (or so she says) and wanted me to do a final walk through and she would return the keys. I told her I would go down there during the day when she is working and that she can leave the keys on the counter. That's how I do it with everyone else. She has been a PITA from the start. Here's another example, a couple months back she notified me that the side door lock was unlocked. She was the only one that had the code to this lock as nobody has used this door in 20 years, but she had to use it. I asked her questions to try and trouble shoot the situation as best I could and offered to come down and review operation of the lock as this lock was new to me as well. And her response to me was, "I was just letting you know. END OF DISCUSSION!"
And you're right, it should be settled like adults and that is usually how I handle this among other things with my tenants, but not this one. --75.86.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by Small potatoes [NY]) Posted on: Apr 25, 2023 10:38 PM
Hire someone to do the cleaning and change the licks and Bill her. Just don't bill for your labor --77.111.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Apr 25, 2023 10:51 PM
"I was just letting you know. END OF DISCUSSION!"
*** Ok then. Change the locks, account for the security deposit and carry on. --172.59.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by Jason [VA]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 12:35 AM
I don’t understand why you reached out to tell her what wasn’t done. It wasn’t done, bill for it and move on. Tell her to keep the keys, the locks are changed on her dime since she’s notified you she’s moved. Block her and move on. --50.219.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 4:29 AM
To Jason (VA). I reached out to her as she still had the keys and as courtesy to give her the opportunity to remedy the situation at hand. Am I able to change the locks on her dime? A couple people have suggested this, and I don't know the answer to that question as I have never had to do this before. --75.86.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by MC [PA]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 6:28 AM
Yes, you can change the locks on her dime. We do anyway BUT she has staed she is keeping them. Technically she has until 4/30. Take it out of her deposit when you pay someone to clean. Be reasonable. Send what is left with accounting and no more discussion. I get it, you gave her a chance to remedy and she says she won't so now no more communication. Don't fall for the drama. --73.230.xxx.xx
WWYD (by Vee [OH]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 6:55 AM
Go make a quick visit and photo what you need cleaned up, when you go to change locks 1st of May if the place is still messy - change locks and charge the deposit to finish cleaning. You already told her what to do - you can lead a human but you can't make them think. Now you have a couple photos of sloppy work and will have a bill to finish the work the old tenant started, follow local and state law on timing and certified mailing so you don't get stuck in court - you should already know your laws old and new. --76.190.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by Steve [MA]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 7:07 AM
Personally, I wouldn't do anything more until Monday, 05/01/2023. First thing Monday, I would change the locks, secure the mailbox & inspect the apartment. If I found that she hadn't removed all of her possessions & properly cleaned the apartment, I would just have them taken care of. Any costs involved with returning the apartment to move in condition would get listed in her SD accounting. I'd send this accounting along with either a check or a bill to her last known address. If she hadn't provided me with a new address, I just send it (making sure I got proof of mailing) to her at the apartment's address. Presuming she filed a change of address she should receive it. If for any reason it comes back to me, I'd just keep it & save it in case we ever end up in court over this.
I'm curious how long did she actually live there & was she on a MTM tenancy or a term lease? If it was MTM, did she give proper notice of her intentions to vacate? If it was a term lease would April 30, 2023, have been the end of the term? If she didn't give proper notice, why aren't you dinging her for either May's rent or the lost rent until you find a suitable replacement tenant?
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 7:18 AM
I have no reason to believe that what I asked her to reclean will be taken care of. Right now it is a matter of her wanting me to come down to the apartment and re-inspect and tell her everything is acceptable and she then returns the keys when I have asked her I will just do the re-inspection and she can leave the keys on the counter.
Steve (MA) She has lived in the apartment since last August, 2021 and she was on a MTM and did give proper notice to vacate by April 30, 2023. A suitable tenant has been found to start on May 15, 2023. I also know that all of her stuff is out of the apartment as I was down there yesterday and there is nothing left.
So I guess that leads me to my next question. In WI, we have 21 days to return security deposit. Does day 1 start when she returns the keys if she returns them or does it start when she tells me she is done cleaning? --75.86.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 7:28 AM
correction--August, 2022 only 8 months she has lived in the apartment
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 7:28 AM
correction--August, 2022 only 8 months she has lived in the apartment
WWYD (by Steve [MA]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 8:03 AM
In MA the clock for returning SDs start when possession of the unit is properly returned to the LL. As stated in my rental agreements they end at 4:00 PM on the last day of the tenancy. In this case she would have until 4:00 PM on Sunday, April 30, 2023, to return the keys.
In MA when we take a SD, one of our state mandated requirements is that we have to provide a written statement of condition of the unit. The actual wording of the SOC has some very specific terms that must be included. One thing is the following:
Apartment Condition Statement
This is a statement of the condition of the premises you have leased or rented. Please read it carefully to be sure it is
correct. If it is correct, sign and date below. You may want to make a copy for your records. If you sign it, you agree that
the list is correct and complete. If it is not correct, you must attach a separate signed list of any damage which you
believe exists in the premises.
This statement must be returned to the Landlord, Lessor or Agent within 15 days after you receive it or within 15 days
after you move in, whichever is later. If you do not return this statement within the specified time period, a court may
later view your failure to return it as your agreement that the list is complete and correct in any suit which you may bring to recover the security deposit.
At lease signing as part of their move in packet I have a list of items that the tenant signs acknowledging that they have received various items one of which is the statement of condition. You could do something similar.
When I come across situations such as this, I find myself referring back to the 2 basic rules of LLing that Aldo, a wise LL from your neck of the woods told me:
1. The Landlord is in charge.
2. The tenant is not in charge.
WWYD (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 8:34 AM
Question. Are the utilities on and in her name still? --172.59.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by DJ [VA]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 8:44 AM
What I would do:
In an email (better than text, accepted in court) I would acknowledge her text, sent on (time & day), stating she has vacated, and that you acknowledge receipt of the return of the premises to you, and that you will follow WI law for the proper accounting of the security deposit.
If she does not reply "no, I'm not out yet", then you're good to go. Start getting it cleaned & ready to show.
Any other inappropriate response is kept in her file, but ignored.
Then do not communicate with her any more. Unless you have to notify her of the date & time of the move-out inspection (like we do in VA) --68.229.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 8:48 AM
For your own safety I would not meet her there --172.59.xxx.x
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 9:02 AM
Plenty (MO). Yes the utilities are still on and in her name. Normally when I have a tenant move out, I will receive notification from WE that the utilities will be transferred to my name on whatever date. I have not received anything from them yet. --75.86.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by Small potatoes [NY]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 10:01 AM
I would do as Steve suggests. Will you still be in the 21 day window, even if a court says the clock started when she first texted you she was out? I used to hold firm on keys and utilities as the end but I don't always get both sets of keys back and if resident moves early, they might leave the utilities on. If they text me they are out, I ask for new address, and carry on with turning over the unit. This starts w changing the lock if I didn't get key back. Then I assess the condition and use my discretion to determine what I might bill for. Fridge and oven dirty, always charge. Top of fridge dusty, prolly not. I may fix something simple myself and just bill materials VS taking the time to find a handyman. --77.111.xxx.x
WWYD (by Marcia [WI]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 10:09 AM
So she really has never sent me a text stating, "I'm out." Last night she just texted that she is finished with the last minute cleaning. If it meets my approval (which I will find out this morning) and I have no reason to believe it won't but one never knows, then she wants me to confirm to her that everything is good AND that she will receive her full deposit back. Again, If she feels she needs to hold the keys hostage, then she will not receive her full deposit back. --75.86.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 12:47 PM
You have to change the locks or should anyway so dont get petty about return of the keys --74.77.xx.xx
WWYD (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 1:10 PM
Your level of immaturity about being "in control" is the sole cause of your underlying difficulty.
You simply refuse to understand that BOTH PARTIES have a stake and rights and obligations here, not just you. Any educated adult knows how to successfully negotiate such a simple matter as this.
You want your apartment clean, so does she, because she wants her deposit back. She asks for a final walk-through to verify your satisfaction, you reply that you would go down there during the day when she is working and that she can leave the keys on the counter. That you do it that way with everyone else doesn't make it the right way. It is such an arrogance on your part, no wonder you have to seek advice about what to do next. For refusing to perform a request for a mutual final walk-through, many judges would take that as admission that the tenant is right.
As usual, CA is the leader in addressing and solving problems. CA law REQUIRES that LL offer a preliminary inspection giving tenant an opportunity to be present, and requires negotiation about when. I believe that you don't want her to be present because you want your opinion to be final and DISCUSSION TO BE ENDED. I think that many (if not most) judges in CA would think that, too.
Times have changed, and landlords are no longer in position of dictators. Tenants have rights, too, and judges expect both landlords & tenants to reasonably negotiate and come to a fair settlement BY THEMSELVES, especially on trivia like your complaint.
You are acting just like a child, insisting that you will be the final arbiter of whether she gets her deposit back or not, and that's your final word. You want END OF DISCUSSION on solely your terms. But these days, she has rights too, and that's a good thing.
It your controlling attitude that got you into this very minor mess. Get over it.
WWYD (by Allym [NJ]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 1:21 PM
That's funny that she thinks the keys are important. She said she was "done" so she is out. She is paid up until April 30 you said. On May 1, Change the locks, send her the accounting for any cleaning and say buh bye. --173.61.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by Mapleaf18 [NY]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 1:47 PM
Another vote for wait until the end of the month. Change the locks and then send her the accounting of her security deposit. Did we have the same tenant? Stayed there for almost ten months in my case and left the oven racks caked in grease. --172.59.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by MC [PA]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 4:02 PM
Words of wisdom. Never bring money or promise when meeting a T for the last time. Take at least a week to check all appliances, drIns, smells, etc. Never bring money. Made the mistake twice-all "looked good" until we started looking. Light bulbs, smoke detectors and batteries, etc.. --73.230.xxx.xx
WWYD (by 6x6 [TN]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 8:35 PM
Hanging around to learn, but I do have a few questions here.
Did she give you any form of written notice?
How did she give notice?
How much notice did she give? --73.190.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 9:23 PM
Only Marcia can answer your questions about notice, but does it make any difference to her immediate problem?
The immediate problem is that Marcia will withhold from the deposit unless tenant cleans to Marcia's satisfaction and releases keys, but Marcia won't accommodate inspection with tenant present, including requiring advance deposit of keys.
Are questions about notice relevant to this problem?
Relevance is important foe getting down to the heart of a problem to make meaningful discussion.
WWYD (by 6x6 [TN]) Posted on: Apr 26, 2023 9:39 PM
Thank you Moshe --73.190.xxx.xxx
WWYD (by Nellie [ME]) Posted on: May 2, 2023 7:28 PM
We tell tenants that we only do security deposits by mail in the state required time frame. I would not commit to there being no damage because frequently there are things found on final cleaning. (My favorite was the bedroom door a dog chewed lightly so wasn’t noticeable on a quick inspection.)
WWYD (by zero [IN]) Posted on: May 3, 2023 7:43 AM
Had that happen to me a year or so ago.
Walked into the bathroom, all was fine. Once I got back to it for painting I closed the door and saw that the dog had been locked in there for a long while. Clawed almost thru to the other side. Hollow core.
The real problem came when I tried to match the door and found the width was different. Had to replace the frame and all. Then the base trim didn't match up because the frame was a little off.
Fortunately I had not sent the deposit back. The tenants actually moved to a house I had opened up. We had a long discussion about the mutt and the damages.
Another reason to have rents for the animals.