Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Sep 9, 2022 8:26 AM|
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Sep 9, 2022 8:36 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Steve [MA]) Sep 9, 2022 8:49 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Sep 9, 2022 8:55 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Paulio [PA]) Sep 9, 2022 8:59 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Sep 9, 2022 9:15 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Robert J [CA]) Sep 9, 2022 9:35 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by S i d [MO]) Sep 9, 2022 11:07 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by MikeA [TX]) Sep 9, 2022 11:21 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by RB [TN]) Sep 9, 2022 11:24 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Allym [NJ]) Sep 9, 2022 12:48 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Sep 9, 2022 1:09 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Sep 9, 2022 2:46 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Sep 9, 2022 5:46 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Sep 9, 2022 6:40 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Hoosier [IN]) Sep 9, 2022 6:57 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Sep 9, 2022 7:52 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Sep 10, 2022 7:26 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Sep 10, 2022 8:23 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Sep 10, 2022 9:15 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Sep 10, 2022 11:57 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by tryan [MA]) Sep 10, 2022 12:14 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Sep 10, 2022 6:46 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Mapleaf18 [NY]) Sep 10, 2022 7:53 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Vee [OH]) Sep 10, 2022 8:19 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Sep 10, 2022 10:50 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Sep 11, 2022 8:18 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Sep 11, 2022 9:31 AM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Don [PA]) Sep 11, 2022 4:40 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Landlord ofthe Flies [TX]) Sep 12, 2022 6:58 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Landlord ofthe Flies [TX]) Sep 12, 2022 7:06 PM
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 8:26 AM
Yesterday I hired two day laborers (man and woman) to come to a rental house and scrub the 10 x 25 ft. back deck with soap/ bleach to clean and disinfect the area where a family of rats had feasted for a couple of months. After 1 hour, I noticed one of the laborers was not well. He was constantly going to the bathroom with diarrhea and was vomiting. I came close to having to call an ambulance for this man but instead, I fired both of them, paid them and sent them on their way.
In this situation, who is responsible for paying for medical expenses (an ambulance ride can cost a fortune) for someone you have hired to work on your rental property? Has anyone else here had a similar experience with hired help? --71.207.xxx.x
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 8:36 AM
That may have been your expense especially if they sued you,may still be your problem depending on how sick he gets.I had a guy working through Labor Ready years ago do a face dive on the concrete and split his head open,my partner called an ambulance for him and that was the last we heard but Labor Ready had him on the books so who knows maybe it was put on there workers comp.Roy,it is not a big deal to put guys on the books and be legal --74.77.xx.xx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Steve [MA]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 8:49 AM
Unless you had an insurance certificate to prove that they were covered, you would end up paying for the ambulance as well as their medical expenses & possibly a cash settlement if they were unable to not just work but to do their normal everyday things as well.
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 8:55 AM
99.9% of all day laborers work for cash and cash only. Any mention of putting them on the books and making them legal will send them running back to the bridge where they slept the night before.
Right now, with a labor shortage going on, the most difficult jobs for me to hire out are for 'grunt work'. If I can find someone who appears to be sober and not high on something, I will hire them just to see if they are reliable and can do the work I need. If they can't, I fire them and send them on their way. However, yesterday I came close to having to call 911 for one of them. --71.207.xxx.x
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Paulio [PA]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 8:59 AM
I assume the back deck was outside in the fresh, clean air. For all you know, that guy could have had something bad for breakfast or was having some kind of reaction to "medication." --50.32.xxx.xxx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 9:15 AM
This man had brought a gallon plastic milk jug with him that he claimed had pink lemonade in it. Each time he took a sip of it, he was puking it back out. These are homeless people and my town has no shortage of them. Most of them live in shanty type shacks in the woods near the river bank. When you have properties in D hoods, you see these types on a daily basis. Most of them are actually nice people and they do want to work but for cash only. --71.207.xxx.x
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Robert J [CA]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 9:35 AM
YOU ARE 100% AT RISK and legally responsible for:
Transportation to a hospital or medical office.
All treatment and medical costs.
Loss of wages.
And since you fired them without just cause, you will have
to also pay damages, if they hire an attorney.
Also it was your responsibility to provide safety gear, respirators rated for any possible toxins, gloves, eye protection, etc. And you needed to show them how to do the job right without endangering themselves.
This is why every landlord has to learn their States rules and regulations.
In California a Workers Comp company was owned by the State. It is called State Fund! Then California passed an insurance law, only insurance companies can offer with a liability/fire police workers comp for owner occupied homes, not rentals. Rates sky rocketed.
So I had to become SELF INSURED by posting a $250,000 bond. Or I could have spent over $100,000 a year in Workers Comp insurance premiums for workers/employee's. --47.156.xx.xx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 11:07 AM
Keep in mind I an not a judge or an attorney. If I were you, I'd seek legal advice.
Usually, when you hire someone else to do work they will be either an independent contractor or an employee. There are well-founded legal ways for determining which is which. Typically, if you control their schedule, you provide them tools, and they don't work for anyone except you or perhaps a handful of other folks, then they are employees. This is important because an employer owes a higher degree of care to their employees per state and federal law.
However, if they can essentially make up their own schedule to your satisfaction, they provide their own tools, and they have multiple people aside from you for whom they work, then they would be considered contractors.
So that's step 1... figure out what they are in relation to you.
Step 2 is did you, through negligence or purposeful activity, put them in harm's way? This is another, separate issue entirely. In other words, if you knew or had reason to believe there was something unsafe with the area they were put into work, then you may bear some liability for any injuries sustained and the care to remedy it.
This would be a civil liability issue, most likely. Civil liability isn't "innocent" or "guilty": rather, there is proportional culpability. The worker is X% responsible; the hireer is Y% responsible. Maybe you are 0%. Maybe 40%. Maybe 15.25%. The amount you owe is the total bill multiplied by the percentage the judge finds you liable.
Roy, if you don't want to worry about stuff like this, find higher quality workers. I know you like hiring cheap day labor from under the bridge, but with that comes these risks. You can't just find drunks for $10-$15/hour an not expect to have some problems on occasion. I'm noticing a pattern here with your workers and your tenants: they seem to all be cut from the same cloths... "Class D and lower." Maybe it's time to trade up out of those hoods if you're not willing to deal with the drama that I'm seeing in your daily posts.
Who pays the ambulance ? (by MikeA [TX]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 11:21 AM
To offer some protection you may want to print one of the independent contractor forms that you can find on-line. It isn't a perfect solution, but it will offer at least one toe to stand on in court should you end up there. The challenge is not providing day laborers with tools or chemicals because as an independent contractor, they must furnish their own.
In the past I have picked up day laborers, told them what I needed, had them sign the forms, and then stopped by Dollar general and sent them in with $10 to buy their own cleaning supplies. I may still get sued, but at that point I have showed enough intent as an independent contractors that my commercial policy should step in with legal representation and coverage. Am I completely safe from loosing? No, but who is. --209.205.xxx.xx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by RB [TN]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 11:24 AM
Some call it drama,
while others find it entertaining and laughable ! --24.183.xxx.xxx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Allym [NJ]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 12:48 PM
So he was drinking pink stuff out of a bottle and vomiting and you asked them to leave. OK, the bleach does not do well in the presence of ammonia. I gassed myself that way as a teen cleaning the kitchen floor. Runny nose for a week. The ammonia in this case would be from the rat urine. I would just wait this one out. --71.188.xx.xxx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 1:09 PM
After reading Sid reply, I now know why 99% of M&P LLs are DIY'ers.
If a day laborer uses his or her phone (they all have Obama Phones with free minutes) to call 911 for an ambulance, that $1,000.00 ride to the emergency room is FREE and all services rendered at the ER is also FREE because they are indignant. Now, if I were the one to make the 911 call, according to you all, their indignancy would make no difference and I would be on the hook for all medical expenses? This sounds ridiculous. I am talking about a simple 911 phone call here and who pays when the ambulance arrives and why it makes any difference as to who made the call. People who are indignant get everything for FREE. Are you all not aware of this? --71.207.xxx.x
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 2:46 PM
Roy,i am well aware they get everything for free,i am also well aware they should be on the books,do you have a labor ready in your town? or a similar company who provides legal day workers?the system doesnt care that they want cash.You should consider finding someone part time or full time and put them on the books --74.77.xx.xx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 5:46 PM
What is Labor Ready? Is that like a Temp Agency that you pay $25.00/hour to and get worthless $8.00/hour temporary help?
These 2 homeless people I hired yesterday were 2 people I have hired before to remove furniture from a house during an eviction, but after yesterday, I think that will not hire them again. I thought the man was going to faint or pass out after he told me his blood pressure was unstable and could be at an elevated dangerous level. That was when I canned him and his old lady. --71.207.xxx.x
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 6:40 PM
Roy,yes Labor Ready in my city is a spot the bums can go and guys like us go in and hire them for the day,yes they cost $25 an hour but they are covered by workers comp,i am serious you should find someone who will work for you regularly on the books --74.77.xx.xx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Hoosier [IN]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 6:57 PM
I can’t answer the legal question, but what Sid said is the way I think. You want to save money, you take your chances. In reality, I think that it will come down to whether you were “negligent” by not providing a safe work environment. Bleach fumes can be toxic, but as they were outside, this risk is mitigated somewhat. It’s not clear how much bleach was used, how hot the weather was, what the worker had to eat, whether they were on drugs or drunk, etc….those would all be factors.Maybe find a safer cleaning agent in the future, and as Sid said….step up to higher quality workers. --99.92.xxx.xxx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 7:52 PM
Roy,how much do you pay these people --74.77.xx.xx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 10, 2022 7:26 AM
Ken, I pay my unskilled labor by the job,...not by the hour. And if I could hire higher quality people for grunt work, I would!
From 2006 -2016, I use to have a great grunt worker that I hired for unskilled labor for 10 years straight. He is now getting a government check and has no need to work for me anymore.
And the grunt worker I had 2 years ago is in prison now for vehicular homicide. The pickings are slim here due to the government passing out free money in the form of S.S.I. disability checks. --71.207.xxx.x
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Sep 10, 2022 8:23 AM
Do these people work in or around occupied houses of yours? or have access to keys to occupied units? You do realize if they do something stupid or even say something against fair housing rules you can be held responsible? --74.77.xx.xx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 10, 2022 9:15 AM
My grunt workers only work for me during vacancies after all tenants have moved out. When tenants are in a house though, I use only licensed pros to work inside the house with a tenant present. My licensed pros know when to talk and when to shut up when talking to a tenant.
BTW,...you seem to be overly concerned about fair housing rules. Why is this? --71.207.xxx.x
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Sep 10, 2022 11:57 AM
Roy,I am concerned about fair housing rules after all the stories i hear where testers go talk to maintenance people trying to trip them up and paying people to try to trip up landlords etc.I have never been accused of violating fair housing but keep in mind i dont trust the govt and i see no reason for fair housing rules to begin with,i feel that an owner should be able to reject anyone for any reason since it is his house he should be making the rules concerning his house --74.77.xx.xx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by tryan [MA]) Posted on: Sep 10, 2022 12:14 PM
Roy, I feel your pain.
I used to get my grunt workers from the homeless shelter. Two at a time, give'em my tools and FEED 'em lunch. Used the same two guys for MONTHS during a major rehab. So I guess (according to some) they were MY employees. Put'em on the books, pay SS, bennies ..... NOPE!
Life is lived in the GREY areas. If I followed EVERY rule I'ld be BROKE.
You understand what works for your business. Stay the course. --206.84.xx.xxx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 10, 2022 6:46 PM
In 2006, when I first became a LL, I asked my attorney what are the odds of somebody (tenant, employee, hired help, etc) taking me to court and suing me for negligence. My attorney told me I would have a greater chance of being struck by lighting than being sued for negligence. In other words, LL negligence cases are very rare and when they do happen, negligence is very hard to prove in a courtroom.
Yes, I will take your advice and just stay the course. --71.207.xxx.x
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Mapleaf18 [NY]) Posted on: Sep 10, 2022 7:53 PM
Again, it comes down to whether you live in a BLUE state or even a BLUE city, in which your chances of getting sued is more akin to the sun rising and setting.
If you live in a RED state or city, your odds of getting sued are probably akin to getting hit by lightning. --72.231.xxx.xx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Vee [OH]) Posted on: Sep 10, 2022 8:19 PM
Learn how to take pulse readings glancing at your wrist watch, and back to their face - did you offer some water bottle? --76.190.xxx.xxx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Sep 10, 2022 10:50 PM
You’ve been at this long enough to know…
The LL is charged for EVERYTHING!
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 11, 2022 8:18 AM
Being 'charged for everything' is one thing, however, getting convicted in a court of law is something totally different.
Do you need an example? Donald Trump is a landlord (among other things) and he has been charged or accused with every crime in the book. But will he ever get convicted by a jury of his peers? No he will not and never will. The man has survived 2 Impeachments and that should tell you something. --71.207.xxx.x
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 11, 2022 9:31 AM
Whenever I hire unskilled labor, I always have an Igloo cooler with iced bottled water, Mt. Dews and Dr. Pepper. Guess what they drink first? I also bring multiple cans of Vienna sausages since some of the homeless workers have not eaten in days. They all get food stamps but the stamps only buy enough for food for 2 weeks and that food is bought at high-priced convenience stores. In the last 2 weeks of every month is when the homeless are out combing the streets looking for odd jobs.
I think I could write a book now about what I have learned from being around homeless people. --71.207.xxx.x
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Don [PA]) Posted on: Sep 11, 2022 4:40 PM
Robert, your advice is way off. First of all, absent a contract, there is no requirement if having a just cause to fire someone. Employment at will. Second, just because someone gets sick while at work does not mean that the work caused the illness. If you contract the flu and need to be taken to the hospital the next day from work, is that your employer's responsibility to cover the cost of your treatment? --73.194.xxx.xxx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Landlord ofthe Flies [TX]) Posted on: Sep 12, 2022 6:58 PM
I WOULDN'T PAY FOR CRAP!
Until the workers show evidence that they suffered from diarrhea and vomiting, and could successfully prove that I caused both, I wouldn't pay. --108.69.xxx.xxx
Who pays the ambulance ? (by Landlord ofthe Flies [TX]) Posted on: Sep 12, 2022 7:06 PM
Also, they're day laborers. Doesn't that mean they're paid by the job? Looks like Roy paid them for the work they did and pronounced the job finished. The term "firing" may not apply if they aren't considered employees. --108.69.xxx.xxx