If you are a 1 person LL (you may have a spouse but he/she does not do anything with your rental houses),...how many properties (SFH) can you manage on your own without feeling like you are stressed out all of the time? My max. number is 20 and with 16 now, I could do 4 more but 20 would be my maximum number.

Now, if your spouse takes an active role (ie. husband/wife team) in managing your rentals, then I would assume your maximum number would be higher than mine is and then again maybe it is not. It is a comfort zone thing.

Whatever your personal comfort zone is, there is a maximum number of SFH rentals that will fit nicely within that comfort zone. If you only have one rental property now, then take a guess as to how many SFH you think you could manage (without getting all stressed out over it). Again, my max. number is 20,...what is yours?

16 but starting to downsize. I've managed all of them especially now that Bill passed away (4 years ago this month). When he was alive he let me manage most things but was there for small repairs.

Good tenants but tired of dealing with applicants. Slowly downsizing. Would like to be under 10. Maybe less. My children don't want these; they are quite successful in their own careers. I've done my job getting them settled nicely and now I want some rest.

We self managed around 36 at one time. I do have a very skilled partner who does a lot of repairs and maintenance. I deal with anything tenant related, finances, scheduling etc.

Looks like I’m down to 17. We now spend hal the year out of state. So we are busy when we are back at home. So far I’ve been able to manage things from afar. I do have a relatable network of service providers (plumber, electrician, roofer, garage door company, painter, fence person, tree service etc..).

Still get calls but so far they have been manageable. It’s harder when something happens thst my partner would normally handle. But I have a great tenant who is about as skilled and has agreed to help out when needed.

He has come in handy when we needed (had a window fall out and a mailbox run over and he took care of those).

I even sold two from afar. Tenants were told they had to leave the properties in perfect condition. My realtor said they were both immaculate and they both sold easily. So it really pays to have good tenants.

I recently got a no AC service call due to a clogged drainline. We vacuum them for each property every six months when we are in town. I just told almost every tenant to get a small shop vac and sent them a link of which one to get ($35 at HD). I am sending them this great little tool attachment designed specifically for this purpose. So it cost me $23 per property to send the tool/attachment. But when I was charged $317 for a simple maintenance task I felt it was worth it.

Gail,

I hear ya!! I have good tenants too but it is the applicants that are testing my patience. Plus, my since my net worth has quadrupled since 2006 (all RE too), I do not need the money like I use to. I could live happily ever after with just 10 properties now. But since I really enjoy what I do, I still have this burning desire to do 'one more' and then call it quits.

Tried carrying 23 in the hood alone with a day job ... that didn't work. So I hired a manager. That worked until she retired and handed her business to young - unorganized - kid.

It used to be a lot, however since each official department within the City and County have to drum up extra revenue so government employees can live on easy street -- rules, codes and regulations are written to "stress out" landlords and bleed us dry by penny and nickeling us to death.

Example: The City planned on a 50% water rate hike over 2 years. So landlords and our respective associations put on a legal battle to oppose this massive rate hike. We go to court and then finally the rate hike is limited to 10% per year with a 30% cap over 3 years. THE NEXT DAY THE CITY raises our sewer fee's by 40% too. We are worn out and spent millions fighting the water rate and have nothing in our war chest to fight the sewer rate hike.

Then the next months the City comes down hard that our front lawns have to be plush green, making us spend bigger bucks on water. Then the City passes an ordinance we are heading into a drought and must cut back on watering our lawns so they die. Then we are required to have only 30% of our lawns green the rest can be water resistant plants.

So with every year there is a new laws to torment landlords, it's either reduce our holdings or die from

the stress.

Had 29, sold one this spring. Married but I didn’t buy houses to make the wife work on them. I hope to eventually get down to 10. That would clear me about 11 k a month after expenses. Although I

Should just hire a property management company and let them handle all of them. Being a DIYer, that’s going to be hard to hand off. Anyway, I think 10 would be comfortable.

I've heard several experts say on syndication deals that they hire one property manager per 150 units and one full time maintenance person per 75 units.

I manage 31 residential units and 14 commercial units. Total of 45 units. Until last week, I also had a 77 unit storage facility that included a 2400 sq ft commercial building with a tenant in it, which I sold because someone threw a pile of money at me to take it. I do my own finances, advertising, screening, leasing, and schedule the maintenance.

I also have a full time 40 hours per week W2 job, a family of a wife and 3 kids, none of whom help with any of the rental biz, except for my wife who occasionally runs an errand for me.

In addition, I play twice a week with a band, exercise, drink beer with friends, watch movies, goof off, and bum around with my buddies here on Mr LL. I take 4 weeks of vacation per year as well as all the regular holidays.

I spend less than 10 hour per week on rentals. Probably more like 5 unless you count prospecting for the next deal.... Which I already have online: a 7000 Sq Ft commercial auto shop that I'm subdividing into 4 units, each with separate utilities. Closing in 6 weeks or sooner once we get all the bids in.

Systems and hiring pros to do maintenance is how I do it. I'm not a Jack of All trades. Back when I was, I could barely keep up with 12 units. With my current system, I feel like another 10-20 units after this next purchase would not stress me at all.

And yes... All calls go to voicemail. ;-)

Jeffrey,

Meaning no disrespect to you, my original post question did not ask anything concerning the consensus of professional property managers and how many units they can manage. Now, if there are any pro property managers reading this, then yes, I hope they will come forward and give me the poop on how they manage 100 plus SFH rental houses that are scattered all over town. Also, I am going to go out in a limb here and make the assumption that 'pro property managers' are probably only managing Class A and B tenants, which we all know are the easy peasy tenants to deal with. I would love to see a pro property manager deal with 100 of my Class C and D tenants in houses scattered all over town. That prop. manager would be a nutcase within one week!

Well

I have a full time day job 40hours

An currently have about 47 sfh

Wife does not a darn thing

2 kids 10 an 11

After carefully reading Roys original post

several times,

the question seems to be,

if you own, manage, maintain, service, screen, remodel,

repair, collect rents, send notices, go to court,

buy materials, and pretty much do everything Landlording,

to your SFH's, by yourself, numero uno, solo,

how many could you successfully manage ?

There was no designating to others, mentioned.

Jeffrey,

Read RB's reply,..he explained in detail exactly what I asking in my original post. Sometimes I can't always put into words what I really mean but RB being from TN seems to be a good translator of my southern vernacular.

Now, if you did not have those 2 trained assistants, how many could you effectively manage yourself? That is all I am asking here. I just wanted to know where everyone's comfort zone is.

I'm pretty much doing everything that RB lists. I spend about 3 weeks/yr on maintenance for 10 houses. Management takes almost no time. Tenants pay rent electronically. If I have a vacancy, it takes a day to prep for the next residents because I have a really good screening process. Renting out a vacancy: two open houses usually yield me a keeper.

Here's the problem with the question,Friend Roy. You said "how many can you manage", but what you meant was, "how many can you diy everything?"

I think if I were doing everything myself and didn't use systems, I'd max out around 25. Class C. I was going nuts with 12 plus a full time job, so if I dropped the full time job and never took vacation, I could probably keep up with twice my original number. But the question I have for you now ...

Sid,

I have always made the assumption that most (not all though) LLs on this MR LL forum are DIYers. It is obvious from just reading other LL postings here. So, you are correct in what I meant to say.

And if the truth be known, I hired out 80% of the jobs that need to be done when I have vacancy and I have one vacancy right now. The reason I don't hire out the other 20% is because there are many situations that require an 'executive decision' and I am the only one among my crew who can do that.

Yesterday I spent 4 hours at my vacancy fixing small things that my crew either does not have the correct tools or the experience to fix, but someone has to fix it or I will fail the rental house inspection scheduled for Tuesday. Just one missing electrical outlet cover plate is enough to fail an inspection here. Take something as simple as 'caulking' for example. I have do all of the caulking at my rental houses because no one on my crew (including my handyman) can handle a caulking gun.

I want to make another post here asking LLs who 'hire out 100% of everything',...how they delegate all of the small nick picky and time consuming jobs (during a vacancy or a rehab) that may require an executive decision. Most of my executive decisions revolve around looking at something that needs to be repaired and then deciding if this can be fixed by my handyman OR do I need to hire a licensed pro to fix this OR should I just do the job myself,...like caulking a bath tub for example.

Roy, while I agree that most of the visitors to this site are DIY, my belief is that given the choice, the ideal goal of most landlords is not to being doing all the work themselves, but rather running a business instead of having a job.

A lot of my input on this site (in this discussion) and my boot camp training is to encourage and help landlords think beyond the DIY mindset and run their properties like a business.

To answer your earlier question directly, I would not have gotten beyond 25 to 50 rentals doing everything myself effectively and no way would have increased my portfolio to where it is now doing mostly everything myself.

Jeffrey,

Maybe I need to enroll in your next boot camp? I learned many years ago that if I did not hire anything out and was 100% DIY, I would have burned myself out and would probably need to be look for another way to make a living. Again, for over a decade I have hired out 80% of the work that has to be done during a vacancy or rehab, but it is that remaining 20% that I feel like I have no choice but to do it myself because I can't find anyone who can think or rationalize a house repair problem like I do.

We don't have a handyman...we've tried to hire a few but those we can afford aren't reliable and those that know what they are doing are more than we can spend for those simpler jobs.

We are hopefully finishing off our last unit this year - well hopefully over the next few months.

WMH,

In my small city in regards to hiring out jobs, I have 2 choices and you may have the same too.

1. Hire licensed & insured pros and most charge $150.00/hour

2. Hire unskilled labor with no license or insurance ($30.00/hour) - these are the 'jack of all trades but a master at none' types. My handyman is a perfect example,..he is good at some things and lousy at others. And whatever he does lousy, I end up re-doing the job myself,...ie. caulking comes to mind. This is that 20% I keep referring to,...LOL.

I didn't reply because I do not have sfh. so I wonder when Jeffery and others mention the number of units they could/do manage if they are talking apples like Roy or oranges like me, all multi. and Roy qualified his Q w/ c class or worse. I don't think I'd want sfh, sure muktis have tenant conflict sometimes but upkeep and lost rent on vacancies are offset by being able to service the systems of more than one unit in one location.

Ken,

You can't expect a handyman to be a master at everything he does. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. In many cases, I just have to be willing to settle for mediocre work or get my tools out and just do the job myself. Plus, my handyman is pushing 80 years old and it is true that you can't teach an old dog new tricks,...believe me, I have tried!

Small Potatoes,

Ken,

What is your definition of managing?

There is a difference in overseeing and managing, just as there is a huge difference in being a one man SFH show and and an investor.

I guess it really comes down to what the duties and responsibilities are. If you are doing RTO, life is a bit easier - but you get only what you inspect.

I often wonder why people are afraid to build a business to scale. Instead of how many can you do, why not ask how many you want to do? Even better yet - instead of asking the number of units.....which means absolutely nothing in my eyes - ask how much monthly cash flow do you want?

This weekend I was over in Holms County Ohio. Why would someone with a large Amish community near them go to the World's largest settlement of Old Order Amish? I want to see how they scale a businesses.

Roy, we now hire out all the stuff that you can hire someone for that has a skill attached to their name. Pablo the Painter, Don the Drywaller, Ron the Roofer, Sam the Siding Guy, Leo the Lawn Guy...they specialize, they provide W-9 info for taxes, and you can hire them and walk away, let them do their jobs.

But for the "simple" jobs like caulking, electrical outlet cover replacement, etc. DH does it. Because it's faster and easier than trying to find and vet someone for all the small "odd" jobs.

Carpentry is our biggest hurdle these days - the young ones are $150 an hour and plenty busy already, and the older guys are all either retiring on us or just slowing down in general.

That's one reason we've stopped actively looking for new properties - no more full rehabs for us!

We are finishing up our 38th full unit by fall, hopefully, and will do one more STR that will be just a tiny "Room For Rent" with kitchenette and bath when finished.

WMH,

I have all of your skilled trades people on my crew too. I just added a new Lawn guy and I have a good reliable painter now that can stay sober. And like your hubby, I am the one that does all of the small jobs that trying to find someone else to do would be a waste of time and money.

Roy, don't you have a handyman and hire things out?

6x6,

I hire out 80% of what needs to be done. I DIY the other 20% which includes all of the nickle and dime jobs that are not worth trying to find someone to do. I guess I am a part-time DIYer. However, the most important jobs I do are the ones that require an executive decision which only I am capable of doing. I will give you an example.

Every time a houses become vacant, the very first executive decision is always,...how to deal with all of worthless junk left behind by the previous tenant. I have 3 choices here.

1. Hire a professional to come get the junk and haul it off (1-800-Got Junk?)

2. Call the Goodwill or Salvation Army and hope they will send a truck for it,...which most of the time they will not.

3. Get someone on my clean-up crew to load everything in my pick-up truck and I will take it to the dump.

Roy, you asked me: "Would your boot camp help me figure out how to deal with this remaining 20% that consumes a lot of my time during every vacancy or rehab that I do?"

The answer to your question is yes. I'm talking from experience. Because I use to be just like you, thinking that many decisions I had to make could only be done by myself.

The truth, while you may think it is hard to believe, is that it is simply not the case. But I truly did not realize it until I forced myself to start doing things differently and systemizing and using checklists for ALL aspects of my business and then fine-tuning each aspect, which I continue to do as new scenarios and challenges pop up.

For example, I have someone who I have trained who has been assigned to turn each of my rentals. He follows a checklist and using the written guidelines we have discussed and fine-tuned, can easily make the decision on what to do with worthless junk left behind. And with each property turn his decision making gets better and better.

What I found out Jeffery was my 20% was closer to 50%. After outsourcing many of the task that could be outsourced to a VARIETY of people (instead of just one or two), my bottom line blossomed.

I found out it was easier to just outsource small chunks of the job instead of finding a single replacement who cared as much as I did.

I also found that there were more checks and balances after outsourcing more - I had more opinions and inputs going into the operation of the business.

Jeffrey,

Roy, the problem is you are still focusing on the "persons". What you have to begin to focus on is the "systems" and "checklists". The person I've got to do my turns is no one "special". If I had to find another person to replace him next week, I could. Because it's not the persons that make the different aspects of the business work. It's the "checklists" and guidelines which are the core of my operation.

And yes, within those guidelines (with checks and balances in place), a person can make limited financial decisions using my money without me having to stop and give permission on every purchase. Is there a small risk involved, sure there is. But that's how a "business" operates. it sure beats me having to run an operation where every $25 to $50 decision requires my constant oversight, execution or supervision. Instead, I now have time to focus some of my "executive decisions" on ways I can multiply my wealth by tens of thousands of dollars or more and now have more freedom to enjoy more of the wealth that is being created.

Ray, I agree with you. So many landlords are looking for that ONE special person (to replace themselves) who can oversee or handle all of their major tasks . Yet your comment regarding having a VARIETY of individuals for different tasks is spot on. I like to designate different aspects of the business to different individuals, who can focus on that particular aspect and therefore be more prone to become proficient at that task and everything related to it.

Jeffrey I think when you start hitting 100+ houses you NEED a full-time person and your system makes perfect sense.

The sticking point seems to be around about now for both Roy and me. We have about half that number, as noted. Not enough units to support a full-time person just for turn-overs, for instance.

We don't flip, Ken. Buy & Hold only.

This post has turned into a good discussion.

6x6, are you paying attention to what Jeffrey and Ray are saying? You need to stop doing everything yourself and develop a system and checklist. Stop being a control freak and start trusting people.

What I am having the hardest time figuring out is, how do you get your mind to make the switch?

WMH, I totally disagree with what I believe is one of your assumptions. I started utilizing checklists and "part-time" assistants and stopped doing everything myself when I only had just about the number of rentals you and Roy now have.

Because I stopped doing everything myself and started utilizing checklists and part time assistants/help IS one of the main the reasons I was able to grow my portfolio beyond 100 rentals. I was able to use more of my time and decision making to focus on building wealth and not the day to day stuff that I could assign to others to do. If I had waited until I got up to 100 rentals and until I felt I could afford to pay for help, I never would have built the portfolio I have now.

In fact, one of the things I would do differently if given the opportunity to start over is that I would have started much sooner developing and utilizing checklists and getting part time help, even when I only had a small number of rentals.

Landlords often think the only type of good help they can get is full-time help. That is not true, especially if you have checklists and systems for various aspects of your business. And there are many people willing to work only 5 or 10 hours a week who can assist you in your business, even when you only have a small number of properties. And remember, stop putting your focus on trying to find good help. Put your focus on developing a good system. This is all part of the mindset I now teach and train landlords and show what executive decisions and checklists are best to focus on to reach their goals.

The reason this is all of great value to you, is because it will allow you to make executive decisions that actually will grow your business instead of simply maintaining it, which is what most landlords do and why they take decades to scale their business, and most never get beyond a certain number, or of bigger importance, only up to a certain monthly cash flow.

Again, let me emphasize, you don't wait until you need a full-time "special" person to consider doing the business model I suggest. It all starts with your systems and checklists. And you begin by plugging part-time individual(s) into your system as you grow your business.

Ken, I may check on a handful of my rentals only once every two to three months to do spot checks (which in most cases is simply a drive-by). Many of my rentals I have not been by them at all this year and several of those which are outside of my local area, I have not seen in several years. I do review reports and connect with my assistants and key individuals over different aspects of my rental business however on a weekly basis.

WMH, you also mentioned "We have about half that number, as noted. Not enough units to support a full-time person just for turn-overs, for instance."

Just so you know, the guy who does my turns is NOT full time. As you know I have relatively little turnover. So the guy doing my turns, even now with a larger number of rentals, only works PART-TIME (on an "as-needed" basis). So often times he may only work 10 to 15 hours in a week.

As Ken suggested, you have the option of hiring people part-time, stop thinking you have to have "ENOUGH work to keep someone busy doing anything meaningful on a regular basis." Yes, a REGULAR basis does not have to be full time. It can be very part-time, as little as 5 to 10 hours a week or on an as-needed basis.

So Jeffrey for some practical matters: how do you handle the tax implications of an employee? Do you actually hire them with all the tax issues that brings up? OR do you do 1099 them as contract workers?

I ask because if they are working based on your system, but making their own decisions, they qualify as contract workers which is a lot simpler to handle than an actual employee. For me, anyway.

For you it probably doesn't matter THAT much because you do have employees because of your other businesses beyond just landlording as well, but we don't.

Jeffrey,

I am sure your checklists and systems are great but they are only as good as the people (or person) you hire to implement them. I think we need to discuss this issue a lot more but not here. (My fingers are getting tired from typing on this keyboard). Maybe a round table discussion at the next Mr. LL convention? This would be a super hot topic!

Roy, again, we are talking a whole different mindset is needed.

The reasons franchises are extremely successful is NOT because they are only as good as the people (or person) you hire to implement them.

And that's the direction I am encouraging you to go in - a franchise model, (where teenagers can run a million dollar business) instead of a mom and pop operation where the owners to all or most of the work and never grow beyond a small time operation. And even if you want to only grow so big, life is a lot more enjoyable if you not doing all the work.

WMH, when first transitioning, I used 1099 part time workers. I now use employees and contractors. But I'm not a tax expert, so I will limit my comments in this discussion regarding that area. I encourage others to please offer comments.

Regarding motivating workers, I believe you are letting a lot of old-school thinking get in your way. Gone are the days when people who work are only willing to work full time. Millions of people today would love to work only a few hours here and there to supplement their income, that's why companies like uber, lyft, etc can operate. As far as getting to JUMP when you need to, in my opinion that's simply about knowing how to communicate the right expectations (for both parties) at the beginning of any relationship and recruiting, offering the right incentives and working with people who are more likely to stay true to those expectations.

Note, my last couple of comments shared involves a whole training in itself. As Roy alluded to, this discussion is just the tip of the iceberg. But as 6x6 alluded, this discussion is an extremely important topic I would encourage landlords to consider taking to heart and learning more.

Other landlords who have moved in the direction I am suggesting, I'm sure Roy, WMH and others would appreciate you adding your comments on any aspects of this discussion.

'where teenagers can run a million dollar business)'

"I am sure your checklists and systems are great but they are only as good as the people (or person) you hire to implement them."

Nicole,

I'm at 54 doors now and its no where near a full time job. I started putting systems in place like Jeffrey is talking about two years ago and it helped me avoid a lot of the menial tasks. Companies like Buildium automate the back end. The actual work you just need to find the right contractors.

My next goal is to get my book keeper up to speed, mostly for my construction company but also for the rentals. After that I could get an admin for 2-3 hours a week to do leases and contacts with tenants. I don't mind doing those tasks now so I don't but eventually I will.