I am livid that a very abusive couple had not paid rent for about 2 years, Covid and withheld rent on phony charges of not fixing very minor things that they have caused while living there and will not allowing access to address them.I'm told by another tenant that they told them that they learned tactics from the internet of how to screw your landlord sites.

Trying to evict them but it takes a long time in Ma.

So the male gets a income of 4300 a month and they get a child credit of 600 a month, The wife has a job but unsure her pay,..The rent for a very nice, 2600 square apt is 1200. heat included.

So instead of paying, they applied to RAFT.

Incredibly, they paid about 25,000 of their back rent, Good for me but not good for taxpayers.

It seems that RAFT people just takes the word that the people don't pay.

I'm wonder if there is anyone (agency or politician) that I can report this to,..

Secondly, since THEY haven't payed anything, can I report them to credit agencies that THEY haven't paid.

So a neighbor tells me that they have no intention of paying ANY more rent and they have a house lined up to buy with all the money they have saved and plan on skipping out,

Again that they have learned this from tenant internet how to screw your landlord sites.

Besides, this they are horrible tenants, moved in cats, have done non-approved alterations , loud fights until late at nights and not parking in their designated spots, overloading dumpster with big non-broken down cardboard boxes, etc.

I would like to see the state recover the money they paid them.

No prosecutor is going to proceed without real evidence. If you have actual proof then I would contact the state Attorney Generals office, otherwise while you may not like it you just as well get over it because the bureaucrats don't care so it will go nowhere.

You do know that if the state wants their money back, they are going to come after you for it, because, in theory, you are the one who actually received it?

Hire an attorney and walk away. You are too upset.

1. Attorney does all default noticing

2. Attorney files eviction

3. Court holds file for 30 days to allow for tenants to apply for rental assistance.

4. Attorney files attempts to settle out of court or settlement agreement is filed with the courts. When non paying tenant demand repairs. It is requested in writing, professional repair person signs an affidavit repairs were performed or not needed.

Attorneys are cheaper than doing the same thing you have been doing for last 2 years and failing. You need to walk away to save your mental health and quality of life.

Hire an attorney and walk away. You are too upset.

1. Attorney does all default noticing

2. Attorney files eviction

3. Court holds file for 30 days to allow for tenants to apply for rental assistance.

4. Attorney files attempts to settle out of court or settlement agreement is filed with the courts. When non paying tenant demand repairs. It is requested in writing, professional repair person signs an affidavit repairs were performed or not needed.

Attorneys are cheaper than doing the same thing you have been doing for last 2 years and failing. You need to walk away to save your mental health and quality of life.

"Two years no rent, huh? Sorry, but I don’t feel bad for you"

Really NE,..anything I could do was considered illegal according to 2 RE lawyers here and several I questioned and got responses,on Legal sites,

Doing it illegally and they could own this building,

So what SPECIFICALLY would you do?

Couple things:

1. YOU are the benficiary of the RAFT program ... be HAPPY for that.

2. The waste/fraud/abuse of this program can be found in EVERY guvmn't program.

For example ... I have a S8 tennie that has living in a SF I own for OVER 25 years. Never "worked" a DAY in her life. BUT I benefit as much as she does from the program.

Little bit funny ... the daughter of my S8 tenant once told me her mom plans to RETIRE in FL. Yup, she plans to move her housing subsity to FL.

Don’t take the negative comments here personally. If you weren’t a MA LL, you would probably be thinking what they are. I know of several LLs in your situation. They arent stupid or slackers. They let the wrong people in. In most other states, it wouldn’t take so long to get them out. In MA, they are considered victims and the court systems treats them as such. I have turned a tenant in for benefits fraud, but I had solid documented proof. DO NOT DO IT UNTIL THEY ARE OUT OF YOUR HOME. You said they are buying a home. Let them. They are going to be mad! I was the one who received the funds for rent and I did not have to pay it back. The fraud was not on my part and it was rent that was owed to me. The tenant had to pay it back to the state because they fraudulently obtained it. It was not RAFT , so I don’t know what you had to sign. I would wait until they buy their home so the state can lien it for the money they may have to pay back. In the meantime, Go on to

Ann, I understand your frustration. In my City a Landlord can NOT evict a tenant so long as there is an open unresolved Violation from any City or County agency.

Ann

Don't take anything that guy that says that if you haven't collected rent in two years in Ma that he doesn't feel sorry for you. He often make dumb statements often here.

Listen to Rents Due and Robert[ca] and most of the others for rational suggestions here.

Some complain about all the government give aways and agencies but tell you be happy that you got paid and think there should be no reprisals to those cheating the game. We all pay for these cheats in our taxes. That money if still spent could go to more deserving people and maybe cure for diseases etc.

Yep, dumb statements, except I don’t have 90% of the problems most other landlords have here over and over and over and over.

What’s dumb? Getting the job done or sitting for two years hoping the government bails you out and being very very lucky that they did?

Just more Kumbaya nonsense from the circle here.

Ann, I’m not here because I care about people’s feelings. There’s plenty of other humdrum landlords to take care of that for people. I’m here for their success. That is if they’re willing to take tough love advice.

Mike, maybe instead of helping this poster get back at these tenants for fraud, which may or may not revenge on her part, maybe we should dissect the laundry list of problems she lists that’s used in describing these tenants.

This problem has snowballed over 2+ years, the fraud is just the tip of the iceberg.

I wouldn’t do anything to further jeopardize my property with them in it, like a fraud case. Good lord, like Ann Needs to invite more trouble. Honestly, once these scumbags are out, why should Ann waste one more second of her time or energy getting them in trouble? Get on your property so you can win.

So NE, just WHAT,WHAT,WHAT, specifically would you do,..yes be specific,..not something like "SELL".

AllyM

They told one of their neighbors that they have some kind of a deal (maybe a relative?) that they can't buy it for about 6 months and they don't plan on moving or paying any rent,..we have a RE lawyer trying to get them out, but in Ma it may well take 6 more months for them to move, We are on the border close to 2 other states,..I think that might make it hard to go after them,if they elect to move to one of them.

Another tenant says that they have done a lot of altering in the unit which are probably not well done as its been the male there that has done them, and hes not all that handy.So much more costs.

Sometimes people get into such upside down situations that they will not listen to the advice when it’s smacking them right in the face. You’ve already received in this thread the two best piece of advice that you’re going to get. Self-help or sell. Which one are you going to listen to you?

If you were able to understand my kind of solutions, you probably would have come up with them on your own by now.

Most people can’t think of unconventional solutions to unconventional problems.

You’re not the first landlord to come along with this disaster though. Many more to come.

I agree, if you can't get 'em out in two years, sell. I DO feel sorry for you, because two years of free rent....ugh.

I would encourage creativity.

Remember that what's illegal isn't necessary immoral.

Are you sure the place is habitable?

Yeah, as I figured, no real answers to what you would really do. Such BS. As far as selling, it's a beautiful building and with the other tenants I get about a 32K positive cash flow from it even without income from these people. Some people have to work hard digging ditches and plowing fields, and doing other hard work.

I'll keep it thank you.

Yes,..as expected.

Ann, you’ve had three people so far tell you to sell and three people so far tell you to go to self-help route. What’s it going to be?

I'll say it again,.I do respect the OTHER Landlords on this board, but they said sell very early without full knowledge of the situation, like how much positive flow it takes in each year, even w/o these people's contribution. This building is in excellent shape and beautiful and built like a new battleship. Lots of upgrades over the years, The only question is this one unit.

As far as "self help" well I only see that in your non contributions of such.

"What would you be doing right now if RAFT never came through? Entering year 3 of no rent?"

Once again galloping Ned,..(how many times asking this?) What SPECIFICALLY what you would do,.No hiding behind you don't really know me etc,..give some examples of what YOU have done,.

Also it could be like my state, Makes no difference if you did not lose income and can afford to pay.

Ann-

I don't understand why anyone comes on here, asks for help, then is defensive.

If it won't make you mad, I'll ask some questions to generate some ideas:

Are you SURE the place is habitable?

Are you SURE you don't need to call codes your self, and let them know there is a repair/safety issue that requires the unit to be vacated to fix?

Are you SURE the water isn't too hot?

Are you SURE that A/C is needed in the unit?

Are you sure you don't need to paint the whole unit with a group of low, rowdy painters?

Are you SURE the drain doesn't get clogged up and not repaired?

Are you SURE that you don't want to offer CASH for keys?

Are you SURE that you don't want to let your pet snake explore the unit?

Are you SURE the water pressure doesn't need decreased dramatically?

Are you SURE the electric doesn't get turned off every few weeks while you work on a recurring problem to ensure the home is safe?

Are you SURE that don't need to remove the bedroom doors to repair them?

How about all the cabinet doors?

Are you SURE you shouldn't sell it?

To Ned

No it didn't make me mad,but I might refer you to Rentsdue, a few posts above. That's pretty much how things work here.

I really sincerely thank you for your post and your list of possibilities, however, these people are great at convincing and manipulating. They have made a good friend of the local code enforcer, who also happens to be the main Board of Health guy in this small town. Two tenants have told me that a number of times they have heard him hang out there, sometimes for well over an hour, and there is a lot of happy laughing. He is known to be a tenant advocate and more than once told me he feels very sorry for these poor people.

These people have caused things to be broken to use as a tool so that they can stay without paying. he has said that's not for him to judge, and nevertheless it is his job to see that these things are fixed.

As far as we say that workmen are not let in, he says, well that's not what they say.

(We DID try a few of your suggestions)but they will call him, and he'll be out there within hours, citing us for violations.

The rest of the people in the building are great, the building is in excellent shape, needs very little upkeep and maintenance and has a pretty good net cash flow even without their monthly income now. For many years we have not had any problems with the building or the people there. We have not had reason to deal with this code inspector before.

Again, thank you and all the people who have tried to help,..but it's a bit complicated and maybe not how things work in your neck of the woods.

Tyran

And these were done when the courts were closed during COVID?

How can that happen?

Ann,

I once had the "best" eviction lawyer around, and he couldn't seem to do it. I relieved him of this burden. I hired a lawyer who had just opened his practice and was willing to go to court. The eviction was granted.

I think the angle NE (and others) are coming from is this:

1) The Govt doesn't care.

2) The tenants don't care.

3) #1 and #2 suck, but....

4) In the end, you are the only one who cares.

5) It's "Status Quo" for at least another year.

Knowing that, you must make a decision. How long are you prepared to continue tolerating this? I doubt you will ever get them in trouble. I doubt you will ever get them to pay rent. I doubt you will be able to successfully sue them.

Therefore, what option is left?

Some of us having seen the way things are going have realized that owning rental residential real estate in certain...shall we say... "progressive" states is a no-win situation for land lords. Therefore, no land lords should own rental real estate in places where the laws have been bad for decades (rent control, anti-screening, long evictions, free lawyers, appeal after appeal, city licensing fees, etc) and are only getting worse.

Thus, the recommendation to "Sell."

The alternative is to wait and see what shenanigans the Govt dreams up next.... or, go off the beaten path.

Once upon a time, land lords would do things like turn off utilities (illegal now), remove front doors (illegal now), etc. Laws were passed. But now more laws have been passed.

Ayn Rand once said in Atlas Shrugged, "The state will pass so many laws that eventually everyone will become a lawbreaker. There will be no innocent men."

Some of us believe we are close to, or already at, that point. If that is true, there then two choices truly are (no sarcasm): Sell or Break the Law.

You have to decide for yourself if there is a legal option that is acceptable to you, and if not, then what are you prepared to do to quietly protest the injustice forced on you. Our forefathers swore an oath to risk, "The fame, their fortune, and their sacred honor" in defense of liberty. We may be approaching a refresh of that time.

All the best!

Amen Sid. Give me a rent payments or give me death.

Thank you Sid,,yes I have thought more recently of selling not just this property but all my places.

I swear people are not the same as when I first started and for many years for a while. Yes there were always bad people but it seems now much more of them. They are getting effective tips from Internet of how to screw your LL, and feel no guilt about it,..cause of course,..we are "the man" and they feel it's OK to screw the man.

In the case of these people, they actually had good credit. I think they orchestrated that also.Again look at some of the tricks on the Internet sites. He was considered a disabled veteran (for anger periods)and we could not get much information on him at that time.

Plus, I had a somewhat newer employee that could more easily be fooled, and she also felt sorry for their "story and plight".

At the time I was preoccupied with other matters and didn't question her as she actually had done a good job in the past.

But I think I'm ready to quit. I own places in Ma and NY. As you know, more and more it's getting worse for Landlord rights.

However, would you buy this property with these people in it? (Yes I know, there are always someone that will buy it with these problems,.. at a big discount.) I really don't want that, It still makes a pretty good cash flow. For the most part, I have others manage my properties,..I can just let the lawyer take it from here.

I can retire very well with selling all these properties and buy a few nice houses in maybe Nova Scotia (a favorite summer vacation place that I Love,) and maybe a winter place in somewhere warm. maybe Hawaii,..and buy a nice rocker chair or two for each of their porches. With some good books and music, and some better time for daily exercise. It sounds real good right now.

I really feel for you, Ann. I'm fortunate enough to own rentals in cities and states that are more rational, but I can see the direction they're headed.

You have to decide what you're willing to do. You sound like a really nice person, and when you're nice it's really hard to give tenants like these what they need.

I'm a pretty nice person too: Sunday School teacher, cub scout leader, blood donor, yada yada. I don't have a lot of sympathy for thieves, though, which is what these leeches are. The fact that the law won't do anything to stop them (and in fact protects them) doesn't make it right. Injustice rankles me. It's just wrong.

Google "how to get revenge on a tenant." Some intriguing ideas out there. You have to ask yourself what you're willing to do and what it's worth to you.

What if a dead animal found its way into their ductwork? What if the furnace pilot went out at unexpected intervals? What if a large load of dirt got dumped temporarily into their parking spot? The apartment may need a great deal of maintenance, too. (Refusal to let the contractor in would result in the police being called, of course.) Don't forget low water pressure, very limited amounts of hot water, noise outside their window, doors that start sticking, cricket invasions, a rock spun off a car tire that breaks their window (and new ones take ten weeks to get in)...

Have I done any of these things? No. But I have applied pressure relentlessly in other ways until the deadbeats give up and move.

Hate to be a Debbie Downer but the gov't doesn't care about fraud. They do a bit of Kabuki theatre from time to time to make it LOOK like they will prosecute. From the gov't prospective, the more people on the dole, the better. More votes to keep their bureaucratic jobs just like politicians.

What would I do were I in your situation? Hard to say for certain, since you have some constraints that I don't and vise versa. But tentatively, I'd explore the following options:

1) I would exercise every legal right to enter onto the premises to do inspections, repairs, etc. I would become their worst legal nightmare. Tip toe on the line of what could be considered harassment, if they could conjure up enough money to retain a lawyer. But of course, always give proper notice for entry, etc.

2) Repairs likewise would take the maximum legal time possible and would be done with the minimal amount of effort to resolve the issue according to my legal obligations. No fast service or special goodies for poor customers.

3) Hire a guy with a really loud motorcycle to drive by the house 3-4 times per night at 2 hour intervals. (*wink) Hey, one can dream about them not getting any sleep, eh?

As I said earlier, and as NE alluded to, when it gets to the point where the Govt no longer protects the legal property rights of citizens, and in fact makes repressive laws such as eviction moratoriums that force land lords to house people for free and allow them to do damages and/or flaunt their lease in other ways, they have tiptoed right up to the line where the Constitution forbids quartering of troops...or civilians in this case. I'm pretty sure the Founding Fathers would have included the phrase "or civilians" in the Constitution had they ever dreamed for one minute that a Govt would ever enact such laws, but that concept of property rights violation is so egregious I don't think it ever crossed their minds.

So, when a person's inalienable rights are being alienated, you have to get creative and "throw off tyranny." We've all had life so easy for so long regarding foreign enemies that we've forgotten that the first and worst tyrant of is often one's own nation state. How far are we prepared to tolerate before we say, "ENOUGH!" and force the powers that be to hear us?

Normally, I am a law abiding citizens, but I'm seeing signs on the horizon that soon it may not be possible nor morally incumbent upon me to abide by every law our Govt passes. Just because a law is passed does not mean it is morally good, and I do not consider myself obliged to obey immoral laws. Yes, that may cause me to "get in trouble".... so be it.

There was no question here. This should have been posted as a RAFT FRAUD Rant. Jeesh.

Ann,

Ray-N-Pa

They/we acknowledged in pre signed inspection sheet, that there was a small crack in a window (HUD allows for a small stable crack with no looseness or open to let air in BUT anyway we were not allowed in to fix it,

And no, the usual way to gain access to an apt does not work here, (I have other buildings in other states where I could gain access)

They now say there are 6 or 7 cracked windows (we are sure that wasn't the case when they moved in

The only other thing they are using is that one of the TWO BIG windows that are side by side, have been caulked closed,..apparently by the former tenant.

Their friend the code inspector harps that all things should work as intended,..thus cited us on that,

Now just 2-3 feet away,,.not only the other window opens

but besides those potential escape routes, there are 2 egresses AND,... a fire escape.

BTW Window World says we have the right to install NON opening windows there like they have in high rise building,..and it would satisfy all codes.

So they have been trying to use these as a tool in order to stay without paying.

Between COVID restriction to evict, and these phony claims, they have been able to stay.

Robert:

Well they are saying since RAFT paid all but these last 2 month which they are claiming to hold because of "deficiencies" in the unit,..

Despite they make over 5K a month from the government on a rent of a very nice apt, that is bigger than the average house in Ma and only paying 1200 a month,..(with heat inc)

That I'm wondering if I can really say that THEY didn't pay rent since June 2020.

Oh yes we this unit has always been if anything a bit too warm. But now they complain it's too cold and called their friend the code inspector. One of the other tenants, who they think is a friend of theirs, told us that they opened their windows, and shut off their radiators for a while before he was scheduled to show up. Yes the apartment was then cold.

We were warned by the code guy about this. However, we informed him that there is a wireless thermometer in that unit that reports to our receiving unit in the basement which showed that it had not gone below 64 ,..not bad since they took off most of their storm windows in this windy and cold Mountain town.(24 BIG windows)

He backed off of that, at least for now. I'm not sure if they're planning to try to use him during the court trial meeting.

There might be a bit of blow to them in the fact that I was able to get some of the other tenants to finally call child protective services. They allow complaints to be made while being anonymous. Because of that, they were willing to complain to them.

They have one child that screams for hours upon hours late at night. Yes, she does have problems. But she also screams that she's going to kill herself.

The other tenants said that she was quiet for the first time in a long time when her father was in the mental hospital in Boston for two weeks,.But as soon as he came back, she started this horrendous,( I heard a tape of it!) screaming and threatened to kill her self. I believe she's about 12 years old.

Child protective services has been out there before but I'm not sure why. I know at least one time it was for this same complaint of the girl screaming for hours until late at night. As far as I know, the service didn't do anything about it.(this complaint was from a neighbor in a building next door.)

But now with a number of other residents registering a complaint, maybe they will act on it and maybe that might have an influence on the judge. That a child being abused might trump the fact of the poor, hundred percent disabled veteran.