6 months ago, I rented out a house to an elderly retired man and the only reason I rented to him was he was the only applicant of many who had the min. 3X rent to income requirements. Without going into a lot of unnecessary details, I now realize I have made a mistake in renting to this person. I did put him on a MTM agreement and now I am thinking about posting a 30 day Notice To Vacate on his door.

Yesterday, I posted a 7-day P/Q notice on his door and that pissed him off. (he was one of 5 tenants that got P/Q notices on their door yesterday and they are all pissed at me). Now, if he does not pay rent in the next 7 seven days, I can file for eviction on the 14th. However, if he does pay the rent, that cancels my eviction strategy.

I really want this tenant out and so I am tempted to go ahead and post a 30 day Notice to Vacate on his door which will just piss him off to the max! My goal is not to piss this tenant off but just do what I need to do (legally) to get him to leave. If he does not leave after 30 days, I will then have to file for possession or Unlawful Detainer.

My dilemma here is trying to figure out which will be the best way to get this tenant out. My out of pocket cost to file for eviction is $300.00 and if that backfires (which happened 3 months ago with another tenant) and the cost to file for Possession would be another $300.00 also.

What would you do in this situation?

Has the tenant pool improved in your area in six months? I don't think my area has.....We've still got good tenants turning into homeowners here, so it would be wade through many 'heck no' prospects, only to end up with 'same s$/#, different day' (same type tenant as was just gotten rid of.....

NE,

The only reason I post so many P/Q notices is because I run a tight ship and I keep my tenants on a very short leash. It all revolves around 'you get what you allow'. In the every neighborhood where I have a rental house, I am the highest paid LL in that hood and other local LL's come to me for advice on how they can better manage their tenants. As far as I am concerned, there is nothing wrong with my style of management. It can be time consuming posting P/Q notices but at the end of the day,..well worth the effort.

Busy,

This house is located in a Class D hood. Everyone in this hood is on the low-end of the government dole. This a hood where Class A, B. and C tenants do not come and fill out rental applications. Get the picture here? I have owned this house for 10 years and I have had some really great Class D tenants here. 6 months ago, I thought I had chosen another one but I made a mistake. $hit happens sometimes.

NE,

Roy,

If I had a tenant I wanted to get out I wouldn’t balk at what it cost me to do that because in the end I will have achieved my goal.

I’m a little confused by your post. Why do you want him out? It sounds like even if he pays you still want him out, is that what you are saying?

Around 1995, many of my fellow landlords made harsh rash quick decisions that they ended up regretting. This was the bottom of a down cycle and the economy wasn't too strong. Instead of being a diplomat and getting what you wanted by "other means", tenants that are forced to do something don't want can damage your rental, cause havoc by fighting your eviction. Just because you file, doesn't mean your going to win.

Ken might have the best advice if the pay or quit works (and he pays) then the 1st of the month rolls around.

Looks like to me you will have to wait out the pay or quit notice and go from there. Then you have the choice of giving the 30 day notice of a rental increase or the 30 day notice to move. It's a short month, so there's that bit of relief.

I've been where you are and it sucks but remember it will pass.

IF you really want him gone that much, you don't want to play the increase game and just give him notice to move!

We don't have to give a reason if we're on a month to month, here in Va.

Lisa,

NE,

When I make posts here, in most cases (90%), I already know how to solve my own problem. In this post for example, I have already given everyone the 2 decisions (or dilemma) that I will have to choose between in an attempt to remove this problem tenant. What I want to know from other LL here is what decision you would make (and why) based on the information I have provided.

Whenever I attend a Mr. LL convention, the only reason I go there is to have a 1 on 1 conversation with another LL. That 10-minuite business only conversation may happen in the hotel bar, restaurant, out in the parking lot or even in the bathroom,...but the information I get is usually priceless. Just learning how other LL's operate their business is the information that I can sometimes use to help run my business. But if all I hear from other LL's is obnoxious criticism, then I have no patience for that. From my point of view, all I get from you is obnoxious criticism. So, you can draw your own conclusions here.

Knowing WHY you want him out might help NE offer better advice. Will you tell us pretty please?

I put up a few Pay or Quits over weekend myself. 1 was an inherited tenant...another, arguably- poor screening on my part.

But yes, I get it...when you get below C level... it ain't near as easy in real life as it is on paper to get 'em filled with reasonable folks...

In that case I’d probably have an attorney file the appropriate paperwork and serve the notices so I didn’t need to deal with him.

But it sounds like you need to see how he responds to the 7 day notice. If he pays then you give him the 30 day vacate notice. If he doesn’t pay, you evict him. The eviction might get him out sooner but if he’s given another 39 days and doesn’t pay you may still need to evict him. No?

WHH,

You said that perfectly,...you actually said it better than I could. I post questions here to start a conversation among LL's which is the exact same thing I do when I meet LL's face to face at Mr. LL conventions. To me, this forum is just an online extension of the Mr. LL convention. And if you have never attended a Mr. LL convention, then you are missing out big time.

Lisa,

Cage rattling at its finest.

Still Learning,

Your goal is to get him out. You've talked about the two legal ways to force him out, both of which are costly and time-consuming.

Still Learning,

The ex-wife took my tenant (her ex husband) to the VA hospital for a mental competency examination and hopefully be ruled 'mentally incompetent' to handle his own financial affairs. Since my tenant is 30 year retired Navy veteran, the VA hospital shrink sided with him and not her over his mental competency. My tenant, in his twisted dementia mindset, thinks he is completely normal and it is everyone else in his family who is trying to gain control over his retirement money.

WL (CA)

I use to have Section 8 tenants in my Class C hoods but I got tired of the 'I am your boss' attitude of the Section 8 coordinator and have not taken a Section 8 tenant in over 5 years now. I got tired of receiving those 'form letters' from the local Sec.8 coordinator that threaten with-holding rent payments if I did not fix some minor insignificant issue (a window screen that the tenant destroyed).

MikeA (TX) said,

"there is a correlation between purchase price/neighborhood and your time investment to manage the property. I believe that is what you are dealing with".

I would tend to disagree with you here, however, this would be a great topic for a new posting here. I will say for now that each Class of neighborhood (A,B,C, D, & F) has its own set of challenges that are particular to that neighborhood.

Yes once upon a time as a beginning Landlord, I had hair.

I couldn't afford to purchase nicer units so I bought crappy units. These crappy units came with crappy tenants. I was also a crappy landlord. I soon loosing my hair from the stress. This went on for about five or so years into the mid 90's.

I slowly found a way to climb myself out of the hole that I was in. If I would spend a little bit more, I could get a little nicer place and get a little better tenant. If I would buy slightly better than that one, I would even get nicer residents. I also found out my hidden expenses didn't jump up to surprise me. Granted, my rate of return was lowered each step up and I never did get my hair back......but life got easier and easier.

Ray, I've never known you with hair.... is that what I have to look forward to? (*grins)

Roy,

You and I cater to a similar clientele. Class C hoods. The trick is finding the Class C+ or higher tenant. What do I look for:

1) Reasonably clean background record

2) No evictions

3) Solid stream of garnisheable income

4) Land lord references - I will consider a co-signer if they don't have one and everything else is solid

5) Cooperative

As I said, there's a bit of a trick to this: 80% of Class C tenants lack one or more of the above items. Some are solvable, like land lord references can be solved with a solid co-signer. Other things cannot be solved, like an eviction. I do not want to risk my house and time with someone who forced their land lord to drag them into court. Now to be clear, if the land lord simply FILED against them, but the issue was resolved prior to having to go to court, then I will still consider that a potentially fixable issue. Some land lords file by mistake (no often, but I've seen it happen), but if the tenant works out the issue with him/her, then I view that as a "whoops" on someone's part, but the issue got resolved. I can live with that if everything else looks good.

In the end you have to be comfy accepting some vacancy. The rental market is hot now, so in theory you should be able to fill your units quickly with the handful of good tenants who simply do not have a lot of money that need a place to live and who will treat you and your house well. I used to pride myself on filling houses in less than 3 days most times. Today, I'm a little more picky. That means sometimes I wait 1-2 weeks, but my eviction rate has plummeted.

Last thought: the 2 minute in home inspection is a MUST! If I can't do it for whatever reason, then everything has to shine like the sun. 680+ credit score. Squeaky clean background. Excellent income from a long-held job. Current and past LL refs are easy to get and all positive. 100% cooperative and makes screening them a cake walk. That's the only time I'll waive that requirement.

Ray in PA,

You are making the assumption that all tenants in Class A, B and maybe C properties are great and stress free,...which any seasoned LL can tell you 'just ain't so'. All tenants, regardless of class, have a 'tenant mindset' which is completely different than a 'homeowners mindset'. Think about how nice it would be if all tenants had a 'homeowners mindset'. We would not get calls during the Super Bowl about their toilet that quit flushing.

I would say the greatest challenge I have in being a LL is learning how to deal with (manage) the mindset of a tenant regardless of whether they rent Class A, B, C, D property from me. My stress level is actually higher with Class A and B tenants because these tenants have the money to hire a lawyer to sue my $ss when something is not handled to their satisfaction. My C & D tenants are too broke and scared to hire an attorney which gives me more control and less stress to deal with. It is all about learning to deal with PEOPLE who come from different social and economic backgrounds.

That wasn't my thoughts, it came from a book I read, I think it was Landlording on Autopilot. He does caution about both ends, high end tenants tend to be perfectionists and low end tenants tend to be unstable. As Ray saw in his file purge, the folders for his lower end tenants were thicker than for his higher end tenants. I can imagine there were multiple pay or quit notices, lease violations for not mowing or trash piling up, lease violations for old cars or parking on the grass, correspondents where the tenant has kicked out one girlfriend and asking to move in the next, or billing for damages and the like. I'm not saying the higher class of tenants don't have some problems as well, they just tend to be less frequent than at the low end. The good side is that the lowest end tends to be the most profitable because many landlords simply don't want to deal with that drama. I'm not saying you are mismanaging them, I also don't agree with others that it is simply a screening problem. I do believe that your pool to pick from is not as good as a level or two higher and that means you by default are going to have more problems because your tenants have more problems.

YOU AND ONLY YOU - can decide the niche that you fill. If the niche you are filling is causing you stress, you have two choices 1) change the way you do business 2) ask the residents to change the way they do business.

Which one do you have more control over?

What do I mean about change the way you do business? If lower end places place cause you heartache, yet you keep them or even worse buy more - ask yourself WHY?

There is no wrong answer, this isn't a trick question and the only person you will be lying to is yourself. If something is causing you a problem - you might want to consider stopping it. If you elect not to, understand what money is doing to you. In my eyes, money is only a measure of safety and satisfaction.

Ray N PA,

My lower end places do NOT create any stress in my life. My tenants do piss me off at times but being pissed off is just a temporary thing (1 hour) and stress is more long term (days, weeks, etc.). When I think about it, I actually live the most stress free life and one reason for this is I do not allow myself to get emotionally involved in my tenants endless drama issues, which are mostly self-inflicted. My relationship with tenants is strictly business and I keep them on a short leash which means I enforce my lease with Zero tolerance when the rent is late.

During the next recession, I plan on buying more Class C houses (I have enough D's) when sellers get desperate to sell again. I view Class A and B houses as 'alligator houses' which produce just barely enough cash flow to cover the mortgage payment and eats you alive on all other expenses that house produces. I only want houses that produce a min. 20% cash on cash return (after taxes and insurance too) and those are houses located in Class C and D neighborhoods. These houses are the real money makers in this business, but only if you can handle the tenants that come with them. Again, I much prefer to manage Class C & D tenants over Class A or B tenants on any given day.

Roy

You may consider - cash for keys - strategy implemented by the EX. other than that you are doing all you can do.

Behavior of the tenant has worn the EX out and it will wear you out. Move forward with the eviction.

It is almost impossible or at least very difficult to deal with someone with Dementia/Alz - I have dealt with it for the last several years with two different family members. Not rental issues, but all sorts of financial and personal issues. Luckily I had family members who helped. Short term memory is one of the first things to go. What you tell them today is quickly forgotten. Please note - In his mind that house is more than a place to live - it is where he belongs. It is his Sanctuary. Most Dementia/Alz folks always want to go home. And in his mind you are taking that away.

Very tough situation. But you seem to be on the right path.

PG,

Cash for keys only works with tenants who are broke and have zero income. My tenant gets $4,000/month paid on the 1st and 3rd days of every month. He spends most of it in the 1st week and can't figure out why he is broke for the rest of the month.