No good deed…
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No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 8:38 AM
       No good deed… (by plenty [MO]) Jan 8, 2022 9:47 AM
       No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Jan 8, 2022 10:22 AM
       No good deed… (by Allym [NJ]) Jan 8, 2022 10:46 AM
       No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Jan 8, 2022 11:11 AM
       No good deed… (by Salernitana [CA]) Jan 8, 2022 11:28 AM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 11:31 AM
       No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Jan 8, 2022 11:51 AM
       No good deed… (by myob [GA]) Jan 8, 2022 11:56 AM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 12:01 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 12:03 PM
       No good deed… (by myob [GA]) Jan 8, 2022 12:10 PM
       No good deed… (by LisaFL [FL]) Jan 8, 2022 12:11 PM
       No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Jan 8, 2022 12:19 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 12:25 PM
       No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Jan 8, 2022 12:31 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 12:32 PM
       No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Jan 8, 2022 1:04 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 1:13 PM
       No good deed… (by Paulio [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 1:25 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 1:27 PM
       No good deed… (by myob [GA]) Jan 8, 2022 1:34 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 1:38 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 1:40 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 1:40 PM
       No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Jan 8, 2022 1:41 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 1:44 PM
       No good deed… (by myob [GA]) Jan 8, 2022 1:52 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 2:00 PM
       No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Jan 8, 2022 2:07 PM
       No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Jan 8, 2022 2:13 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 2:15 PM
       No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Jan 8, 2022 2:21 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 2:21 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 2:26 PM
       No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Jan 8, 2022 2:52 PM
       No good deed… (by Jim [OH]) Jan 8, 2022 4:09 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 8, 2022 4:16 PM
       No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Jan 8, 2022 4:34 PM
       No good deed… (by Salernitana [CA]) Jan 8, 2022 6:32 PM
       No good deed… (by Lana [IN]) Jan 8, 2022 7:41 PM
       No good deed… (by myob [GA]) Jan 9, 2022 7:32 AM
       No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Jan 9, 2022 9:53 AM
       No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Jan 9, 2022 10:04 AM
       No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Jan 9, 2022 1:52 PM
       No good deed… (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Jan 10, 2022 6:59 AM
       No good deed… (by Robert J [CA]) Jan 16, 2022 12:32 PM
       No good deed… (by Jason [VA]) Jan 16, 2022 3:09 PM
       No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Jan 16, 2022 3:16 PM
       No good deed… (by Ken [NY]) Jan 17, 2022 12:01 PM

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No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 8:38 AM
Message:

My wife and I went out for dinner last night and a couple of tenants came in to eat when we are about getting ready to leave. Long term married couple. No problems, they do everything you would hope good tenants would do. They are very nice people. And I picked up their check for dinner and as I was at the register paying I thought this is going to come back and bite me in the a$$. Well, it’s 10° here in Northeastern PA this morning and I’m on my way to their building, because I got a text message from the husband this morning saying that they don’t have any heat, but thank you very much for buying our dinner last night!! Ha ha, that was quick. --174.198.x.xxx




No good deed… (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 9:47 AM
Message:

Flip it. If you hadn't bought dinner for them the call may have brought worst news. Awesome kindness you did. --172.58.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 10:22 AM
Message:

Well, but, they didn’t likely do anything to cause the no heat situation. Unless they screwed up the thermostat. (Temperature wars…I’m hot/ I’m cold/ I’m hot…. Had a tenant family just confound the programmable thermostat. No more programmable for my rentals)

It is amazing how ANY contact with tenants, and all of a sudden, the list of things they have been sitting on, not texting me about. ‘Oh this house is a mess’. Heard that the other day when I went in a house for scheduled inspection. We had a conversation about, ‘well, then TEXT me when something happens,’ I’ve been limiting my inside visits to that house because tenant is so worried about…… ( you know)………….. And the concerns were quickly remedied.

I’m very surprised you would have bought there meal. It’s a nice gesture, but, gifts ALWAYS come with strings attached. In almost all relationships. --70.92.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by Allym [NJ]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 10:46 AM
Message:

That whispers of spirit help for you. Someone on the Other Side may have given you a heads up to help them so you paid for their dinner. The real heads up was for the heater issue. Sometimes spirit can be unclear or our reception is poor. You felt they needed "something" and you gave it to them but the "something" was the heat. That's how it works. Very subtle. --108.24.xx.xx




No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 11:11 AM
Message:

That is a beautiful way of looking at it, AllyM. --70.92.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by Salernitana [CA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 11:28 AM
Message:

First, thank you for having bought your tenants dinner. How utterly awesome, kind, and generous.

I myself would have felt exactly as you. I would have laughed and thought, "Wait for it...they are going to hit me up for something," echoing the exact concept that AllyM noted.

--71.202.xx.xxx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 11:31 AM
Message:

Well, I’m not worried about them hitting me up for anything. Today we are right back to a cold hard no. I’ve never bought dinner for tennis before, but I do it for contractors any time I see them out. --174.198.x.xxx




No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 11:51 AM
Message:

Didn’t mean to chastise you, NE. It was a nice gesture. I would buy for contractors definitely. Different relationship.

And, yup, we learn that just because we were nice on one thing, doesn’t mean that we are now a pushover. My tenants figure that out, if they’re with me long enough. No means no. --70.92.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 11:56 AM
Message:

your a cry baby aren't you? what does one have to do with the other? Aren't you the same guy who said I don't give out gifts? but you paid for dinner!

Suck it up butter cup!!!!

Wasn't a good deed-- it was your job to fix heat. --99.103.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 12:01 PM
Message:

I’m not a crybaby at all MYOB I was just stating the fact that I knew there was gonna be some alternative response after this happened. But heats already fixed brother. These are the only tenants that I have that I would do this for. And if they don’t pay February, they better start packing! --174.198.x.xxx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 12:03 PM
Message:

Plus, the good deed is not fixing the heat. Good deed is the dinner. --174.198.x.xxx




No good deed… (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 12:10 PM
Message:

Wasn't expecting 2 answers! NE

I'll send you some Kleenex for those tears and runny nose.

I swapped out a water heater this morning in the cold. Took 20 minutes from tool start to close up and leak check.

Didn't even get offered a cookie for doing it.

Have a great new year NE. I need to get back to my cruise planning. --99.103.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 12:11 PM
Message:

It’s always something isn’t it?

I just rented a house I was going to sell to a former tenant who I really liked.

I sold the duplex they were living in and purposely chose a buyer I felt would treat them well. They had great new landlords but the new folks sold the place again after 18 months so the tenants contacted me to see if I had anything.

I had a small house that just opened up right down the street from them that I was going to sell. But I decided to keep it to rent to them. I “knew” the house didn’t need a lot of repairs to get it ready for them and I raised the rent between the two tenants but kept it artificially low because I know their budget. I most definitely have helped them at my own expense but that was OK with me.

So after I committed to them and got into the house to do some repairs we noticed it wasn’t cooling as well as it should. We decided to check the attic to see if we could identify any problems with the duct work. Turns out rats had eared huge holes in ALL the ductwork. It all needs to be replace. So I had a non-typical and unexpected $2500 repair.

But it’s the risk I took. I always sell myself short but somehow always come out ahead. So in the end I still feel lucky. --24.96.xx.xxx




No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 12:19 PM
Message:

Some sort of alternate response.... that's rich. Did you think they wouldn't call you if the heat was out in 10 degree weather if you didn't buy them dinner? I think the gears are grinding. --66.42.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 12:25 PM
Message:

I don’t care that they called me about the heat. That’s not even the point. The point is I knew that there was gonna be something coming from the gesture of the dinner and sure enough it did. You lefties are going to try a little bit harder than that. You can’t dog a dog --174.198.x.xx




No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 12:31 PM
Message:

You have enough projection to run a movie dude. --66.42.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 12:32 PM
Message:

JAC, what are you even doing on this thread? Are you just supposed to police Covid? Do you even have tenants?

Lisa FL, it’s kind of along the same lines as when you get ready to go on vacation. You know the night before you leave somebody’s gonna call you with something crazy that you have to run out and do. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:04 PM
Message:

I calls them as I see them. Don't be salty, your entertainment value is always high. --107.77.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:13 PM
Message:

Oh I’m not salty at all. It is what it is and was meant as a good natured thread. Not even talking badly about my tenants or the heat. Just noticing the situation.

On the other hand here you are. Again. I’m wondering, why I never see you start threads of your own or participate in normal landlord topic conversations on here? Now I know I can trade blows with the best of them, but the only time I ever see you show up is when you have an opportunity to chastise at me. Now I can give it and I can take it, I’m just wondering why you’re doing it in the fashion that you are? Because I never see you anywhere else on here. Are you some sort of cyber stalker or something? --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by Paulio [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:25 PM
Message:

I think JAC let slip one time that he/she/it has 1 unit. Instead of policing covid comments, maybe he/she/it could offer tips on how to paint that 1 door. Or, I know, how to get a couch out of their 1 living room! --174.198.x.xx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:27 PM
Message:

Buying meals for contractors is definitely a lot cheaper when you only have one unit. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:34 PM
Message:

NE with 17 people posting to you-- and so many on your case who was your last post addressed to? ALL or some of us?

Are you caught up in DrFau ciu's and Brands red carpet again?

just pick-in-at-cha as I work on new dinner cards for tenants. Thinking maybe if I send cards the phone will not ring for maint?

Speaking of gifts and gratuities: how many buy gift cards for diner and grocery stores for tenants and deduct them as advertising? (but don't really give them to tenants?

not that I would do that but wondering out loud. --99.103.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:38 PM
Message:

MYOB, that was directed at JAC and she/he knows it. I think you should send me one of those gift cards as a thank you for all the comic relief you get from me. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:40 PM
Message:

MYOB, it would be a lot cheaper for you to send me one of those gift cards and buy my dinner. I’m big enough to eat for two and as good looking as 10. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:40 PM
Message:

*than buy my dinner, that is. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:41 PM
Message:

I get plenty of tips from here for my 4 units and I rarely if ever hire contractors. Just today snapping cast iron from a stack. The hard part is the roof in the cold. --107.77.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:44 PM
Message:

Wow. I’m actually impressed. I definitely did not take you as someone who could get into the nitty-gritty of that kind of stuff. Do you own the snap tool or did you rent it? --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 1:52 PM
Message:

NE I brought you and the family 500.00 in Ruth Cris Steakhouse gift cards. Put it under training and advertising on my tax form.

Oh! you say you never got them????? There coming -- with the rent check I'm sure?

Gee sorry to hear that.

NE bet you didn't know there was a Ruth Cris in Isle Verde PR at the Intercontinental Hotel!

Was delicious!

Yes fun as always. --99.103.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 2:00 PM
Message:

Eh, I can cook as good as Ruth Cris, fancy restaurants don’t impress me. Neither does adventures in far away lands. Send me a gift card Home Depot instead. You can still write that off. I was hunting for my own food this morning deep in the woods. I bet you’ve didn’t even know how dead silent it can be way out there in nature with fresh snow on the ground. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 2:07 PM
Message:

I rent it. The building I have has 4 units, 2 on each side. Two stacks. I have been pulling out any cast iron from vacant units the last few years. The final piece this spring will be under the slab which I will have to cut and bust out for about 5 feet. I love a good sledge hammer --107.77.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 2:13 PM
Message:

The vacation thing- YES!!

I don’t like to travel, husband does, so I build redundancy in for those emergencies. Even so, have gotten a text from same tenant on each of our most recent trips. Legitimate concerns, just that I don’t often get texts from this tenant. That’s why I keep a home maintenance plan from a local company that services electrical, hvac, plumbing. Yeah, a bit spendy, but, hubby wants to travel, and I deal with anxiety ( no bueno!) If I were a bigger operation, I could have an employee to handle such. This company serves as a convenient safety net. ( and a few phone numbers in my contacts that would fill in in a pinch.)

I think, NE, this is called the Recency Effect. Or, maybe it’s another term; been too long since college. And, AllyM maybe has it right too. There is maybe a bit of ‘ you’ve been on my mind’ kind of thing. Like, somewhere in the recesses of our brains, we are pondering…… ?….? …..? …. Did that furnace make a funny noise last time I was there? It’s that cold time of year when middle-age to older appliances like to have a part wear out… But, our conscious part of brain doesn’t think of it. Though the thought is tickling our brains. So, we decide to buy them dinner when we see them. A conscious decision, but, maybe, our wee brain was ruminating…. Or, maybe we just decided to buy a good, long-term tenant dinner. Full stop. We don’t get an answer sheet about life.

I had one of those moments where I could have done a simple, nice thing for a relative. Could have checked in with him after he’d been through a stressful time. I didn’t. I so wish I’d have reached out to him, in view of events that followed. Oh, if only I had texted or called him, I might have helped him from slipping into the abyss…… I’m trying to tune- up my inner AllyM and not ignore those things. Oh, maybe it’s just backward chaining or hindsight that makes me think there was a connection. But, I had the phone out, and had started a text, decided against it. Terrible events followed. Wish I’d tossed a good word his way…

Even big tough guys get to be ‘softies’ sometimes. The thing is, it’s at YOUR discretion, nobody badgers you into it. I know you weren’t writing about this for accolades, so does MYOB, and even JAC. They get their entertainment value out of the discussion. (though, j a c, the obsession with ne might not be so healthy for you. Your sparring seems to come from an unhealthy space…) --70.92.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 2:15 PM
Message:

Well done JAC, what made you do it? Was it failing. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 2:21 PM
Message:

Refurbushing kitchens and baths in those vacants. The building is 1950s and so is everything else. If I have the cabinets and tubs out I might as well replace the old plumbing. --107.77.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 2:21 PM
Message:

Busy, I think it’s something that’s also referred to as cosmic consciousness. Similar to when you’re thinking about someone and then your phone rings and it’s them. Or you think about knocking over a glass and the next thing you know, it’s smashed on the floor. Similar to looking at something and saying oh that’s a great idea I should turn it into the business and not too long after, you see that business pop up somewhere. It’s the vacation thing as a landlord. It’s the no good deed goes on punished by buying dinner and the next thing you know, you have to go deal with the furnace at this tenants building and the message comes from that tenant. It’s neither good or bad, it just is. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 2:26 PM
Message:

Well JAC, I’m a man who gives credit where credit is due. Your ability to operate a cast-iron snapping tool takes my respect up for about a half a point. Most landlords don’t even know what that is. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 2:52 PM
Message:

I don’t know what a cast iron snapping tool is. But, sounds interesting. I’ve cut only one big plumbing stack so far. The great, really terrific kid (older twenty-something) working at the drain clearing company told me how to do it after seeing there was no clean-out access to the drain, then came back later to clear the lines ( tree roots) . I spent a lot of time with my reciprocating saw and several blades to cut that bugger.

But, a cast-iron snapping tool sounds nifty. I imagine it scores and snaps a bit like cutting tile? Only, beefier? It it heavy to handle? ( oh, I’ll look that up, never mind. I only have one more plumbing stack without the clean-out. I can manage with the reciprocating saw…)

Off to go look that tool up! --70.92.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by Jim [OH]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 4:09 PM
Message:

Anyone who decides to cut out a four inch riser stack needs to be advised to install riser clamp(s) first. I have first hand witnessed a stack that tore itself loose and fell. Talk about a slight job malfunction!! The chain snap tool is a great thing. You just have to have enough lever clearance to make your cuts. The only thing that gets you into a tight spaces are "Metabo" slicing blades on a side grinder.

JAC, rent an electric jack hammer to do the slab bust. Say, better yet, rent a JAC hammer. You're welcome. --184.57.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 4:16 PM
Message:

Jim, my RE partner has nephews who live out near Pittsburgh. They were cutting a stack of it let loose and fell on the one brothers hand. Just about cut his hand right off his arm. Basically had to have his hand rebuilt. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 4:34 PM
Message:

I had one fall about 6 feet in a garage after a cut. I secure with clamps and ropes now and cut smaller sections. --107.77.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by Salernitana [CA]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 6:32 PM
Message:

JAC, you rock! Best of luck with your projects, including of the one to remove the cast-iron stack. I'm glad that you're taking precautions! --71.202.xx.xxx




No good deed… (by Lana [IN]) Posted on: Jan 8, 2022 7:41 PM
Message:

I understand NE and my granny would too. You tempted fate by doing a good deed for your tenants and fate responded. I call it superstition. I am always hesitant to test that concept as well. Just like I never say, "Gosh, I haven't had any pipes freeze yet this year." --216.23.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Jan 9, 2022 7:32 AM
Message:

Holy mackerel! A cast iron snapper-- haven't needed one of those for years now. Still have 3 houses that have those sewer lines but I cut every tree and pulled every bush that might have roots going to those lines. (I hope I did)

Snapper is slightly less dangerous than a porta power or a 10X gun. --99.103.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 9, 2022 9:53 AM
Message:

The danger thing- yup, that tool probably isn’t for me. With only one clean-out left to do, I’ll stick with tools I’m already familiar with. But, boy howdy! Watched some videos of those, and if I had more than the one or two drain waste pipes needing a clean-out installed, I’d learn how to be proficient with that thing. That was slick. With my reciprocating saw, I can only cut one pipe in a day, then need a few days break for my puny wrists to recover . Too much carpal tunnel syndrome ( whine…. Whine…whine..)

I hear ya on the trees and bushes, MYOB. Those with spreading ( horizontal) roots like maples often love a drain pipe. City has maples in front of three of my houses. Now, that shade is great, and in the summer, the knuckleheads sure need to cool off…..but those maple roots reach and reach…. Little leaf London tree was just planted a couple of years ago in front of my fourth property, so we’ll see…. The ash trees that lined that street were fairly well behaved, root-wise, but they’re succumbing to Emerald Ash Borer. The one in front of mine was first to go. --70.92.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by JAC [OH]) Posted on: Jan 9, 2022 10:04 AM
Message:

The tool isn't the danger. It just makes it easier than cutting by cranking a ratchet. The danger is the weight of cast iron. That danger is present whether snapping or cutting. --66.42.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Jan 9, 2022 1:52 PM
Message:

Ah.. that makes sense, JAC. I did wear my steel toed boots when cutting the one. Hadn’t though about tying the section off, though I was mindful of that weight as I cut. Going to look up ‘riser clamps’ now.

JAC hammer, lol! Good one, Jim! --70.92.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Jan 10, 2022 6:59 AM
Message:

Why is it that the heat only dies on super cold days? --24.101.xxx.xxx




No good deed… (by Robert J [CA]) Posted on: Jan 16, 2022 12:32 PM
Message:

I had a tenant who's old screen type TV finally died. I told them I could "lend" them a 32 inch flat screen TV for a couple of months, until they found a new one on Sale. As I was delivering the TV to the tenant, all of the other tenants came outside and screamed, "Why is this tenant getting a New TV? I have to do the Same for Every Tenant"

When my other dozen or so tenants saw it was a "Used 32 inch LED TV", they responded it's was "JUNK" -- a small screen TV. They would not accept anything under 50", preferably 60" as a minimum.

When the aunt of my tenant saw I let her a 32" TV, she went out an purchased a larger screen as a new years present. --47.155.xx.xxx




No good deed… (by Jason [VA]) Posted on: Jan 16, 2022 3:09 PM
Message:

Why in the world are we loaning televisions to tenants now? I can’t imagine having this much involvement in my tenants’ lives. --73.177.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Jan 16, 2022 3:16 PM
Message:

Jason, A lot of landlords are on a tea and crumpets basis with their tenants. I try to keep myself in a relationship where I forget their names shortly after lease signing. Except the folks in the original thread. My kind heart beats at least once a year. --24.152.xxx.xx




No good deed… (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Jan 17, 2022 12:01 PM
Message:

I wouldnt even know my tenants tv broke let alone get that involved and loan them one,why get so involved? --72.231.xxx.xxx



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