Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 29, 2021 12:53 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Plenty [MO]) Dec 29, 2021 1:05 PM
Front porch collapsed (by S i d [MO]) Dec 29, 2021 1:08 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Jason [VA]) Dec 29, 2021 1:15 PM
Front porch collapsed (by NE [PA]) Dec 29, 2021 1:17 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Steve [MA]) Dec 29, 2021 1:45 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 29, 2021 2:10 PM
Front porch collapsed (by GKARL [PA]) Dec 29, 2021 2:10 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Jason [VA]) Dec 29, 2021 2:21 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 29, 2021 2:37 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Plenty [MO]) Dec 29, 2021 3:40 PM
Front porch collapsed (by T [IN]) Dec 29, 2021 3:49 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 29, 2021 4:08 PM
Front porch collapsed (by plenty [MO]) Dec 29, 2021 4:16 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 29, 2021 6:38 PM
Front porch collapsed (by 6x6 [TN]) Dec 29, 2021 8:49 PM
Front porch collapsed (by MikeA [TX]) Dec 29, 2021 9:50 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 29, 2021 9:57 PM
Front porch collapsed (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Dec 30, 2021 12:34 AM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 30, 2021 7:19 AM
Front porch collapsed (by DJ [VA]) Dec 30, 2021 7:33 AM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 30, 2021 8:43 AM
Front porch collapsed (by myob [GA]) Dec 30, 2021 10:26 AM
Front porch collapsed (by Scott [IN]) Dec 30, 2021 11:38 AM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 30, 2021 11:44 AM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 30, 2021 12:23 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Ken [NY]) Dec 30, 2021 1:50 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Chris [CT]) Dec 30, 2021 2:26 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Scott [IN]) Dec 30, 2021 5:19 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 30, 2021 5:26 PM
Front porch collapsed (by myob [GA]) Dec 31, 2021 11:02 AM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Dec 31, 2021 2:43 PM
Front porch collapsed (by myob [GA]) Jan 1, 2022 6:51 AM
Front porch collapsed (by JB [OR]) Jan 1, 2022 11:51 AM
Front porch collapsed (by Ken [NY]) Jan 1, 2022 4:30 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Jan 2, 2022 9:47 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Jan 3, 2022 4:44 PM
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 12:53 PM Message:
I was having a great 2021 year until about an hour ago when a tenant called and said his 12 x 24 ft. concrete front porch had collapsed!! I drove over and yes, 1/2 of his front 6 inch thick concrete slab has collapsed into the crawl space for no apparent reason. This is going to be a major repair. The part that did not collapse will (like the high-rise condo in Miami Beach) will have to be demolished and the entire 12 x 24 porch re-built. I told my tenant he may have to move out but for now just use the back door. His house (MH) is fine and was not attached to the front porch.
Has anyone else had a similar situation that just seems to happen when you least expect it? --71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by Plenty [MO]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 1:05 PM Message:
Well I wouldn't like any of that. Must be a Murphy's law in play. Wow who would guess concrete would fail like this. Next year you'll have a better safer house. For now..m geez.. I'm sorry you have to deal with all this. --172.58.xxx.xx |
Front porch collapsed (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 1:08 PM Message:
A crawl space under the concrete porch of a mobile home? Wow.... never heard of that, period, much less heard of one collapsing.
I imagine there must be some sort of bracing to hold up a 6 inch thick slab of concrete over dead space. Did the supports fail, erosion wear it out, or what "took it down"?
The whole concept still baffles me somewhat. Sounds like a sinkhole waiting to happen. Is that kind of construction normal in the South? --108.230.xxx.xx |
Front porch collapsed (by Jason [VA]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 1:15 PM Message:
I was thinking the same as Sid. However, is there a reason you can't just rebuild with pressure treated lumber and call it a day? --165.225.xx.xx |
Front porch collapsed (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 1:17 PM Message:
Insurance. --174.198.xx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Steve [MA]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 1:45 PM Message:
Like Sid, I'm surprised that there was a crawlspace under a concrete slab / porch for a MH. Is the slab yours & the mobile home his or do you own them both?
If there is a concrete floor in the bottom of the crawl space,
I'd be inclined to punch a few holes in it for drainage, throw the slab rubble in then frame a new porch / deck above it. --71.174.xx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 2:10 PM Message:
A little history first. Before 1975, there use to be a 1940's vintage house built on this lot. This front porch was originally built for that house. That house burns down and the lot was cleared of everything except the elevated (3ft) concrete slab front porch. This 12 x 24 porch has a cinder block foundation that supports the outside perimeter of the porch. Now, instead of rebuilding the house, someone bought the lot in 1976 and put a 1976 vintage SW mobile home in and butted it up against the existing front porch which made perfect sense.
Fast forward from 1976 to 2011 and I buy the MH and lot from the 3rd owner of the MH. Even in 2011, the concrete porch had a 'shallow spot' in the middle where rainwater would always pool. It was where this water would 'pool up' as to where the slab began it's collapse. Also, I noticed this morning when looking at a cross section of a broken 6 inch slab section, the original rebar used inside this concrete is all rusty looking. I don't know the full age of this concrete slab but it is at least 50 years which enough time for rebar to rust. T
That is all I know the time being. --71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by GKARL [PA]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 2:10 PM Message:
The crawl space/void is probably the culprit. I don't understand how a heavy slab of concrete would be secure in that situation. I agree others who say replace with a deck. That will be way cheaper and more secure. --209.122.xx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Jason [VA]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 2:21 PM Message:
Would it make more sense to demo the foundation walls completely and just build a single set of stairs? --165.225.xx.xx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 2:37 PM Message:
Jason,
The perimeter cinder blocks did not collapse and they are still supporting the eight 4x4x7' wood posts which are supporting the metal roof above it. This 12 x 24 porch has a metal roof which I am so glad did not collapse due to the foundation wall not being affected. If that foundation block wall is still good, I want to keep it.
I am debating as to whether or not I need to get my insurance company involved in this. Calling the insurance company could open a real can of worms here since this is a MH and every insurance company HATES insuring MHs. My insurance company would pay for this but they will dump me after it is all over with. --71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by Plenty [MO]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 3:40 PM Message:
Can it just be filled in with more concrete over the rubble? --172.58.xxx.xx |
Front porch collapsed (by T [IN]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 3:49 PM Message:
Not quite like yours... but here is my porch story....I had a front porch get hit by a car about 5 yrs ago. Took the front right pillar out. Dropping the porch roof down on the Escallade. I turned it into my insurance; got like 6200 and they went after they driver insurance company. Cheapest estimate to rebuild was 15k. Needless to say; I re built the front porch and pocket the difference.
Your tenant can stay put. Just needs to use the back door. --76.77.xxx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 4:08 PM Message:
Plenty,
Now that I think about it,..it could be filled in with plain old fill dirt and rebuild the wood deck porch on top of that. Tomorrow my handyman will look at it and advise me as to what needs to be done next. I have never had to deal with this type problem before so I guess this will be just another learning experience for me. The first thing that needs to be done is to remove my tenant's barbeque grill from inside the collapsed hole. --71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 4:16 PM Message:
Being the wise experienced frugal investor you are, you'll find a reasonable way to Save The Day... And the tenant and the money! --172.58.xxx.xx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 6:38 PM Message:
Plenty,
I may already have a plan. Rent a jack hammer to bust up the remaining slab and just let it fall down to the crawl space dirt. And don't backfill it with anything. Using those 40lb. concrete deck blocks, place each deck block on the existing slabs which will be laying on the ground and just start building the new deck from there. Sounds easy but in practice it is a real PITA. --71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by 6x6 [TN]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 8:49 PM Message:
Roy, sorry to hear of your current situation. I would be willing to bet that the underside of that structure was not periodically checked for decay. There should have been some sort of structure and floor to pour the concrete on originally that probably decade a long time ago and now the rebar in the concrete is weekend as well.
Sid, there use to be, and still are, all kinds of structures that are normal in the south. They were built by rednecks who had no code enforcement and no real standards. I am not sure if the same applies to the north or not. --73.120.xx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by MikeA [TX]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 9:50 PM Message:
Sounds like it might have been built using steel tension cables. They put the cables in the concrete and after it sets a bolt protruding from each end is tightened putting the cable under high tension thus giving it strength for non-supported loads like you have. Fairly common in the 1960-70's. Unfortunately, the cable almost always fails without warning causing a catastrophic structural failure.
Break it up and dispose of it in the crawl space. Go back with either wood or fill with dirt and replace the concrete. --209.16.xx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 29, 2021 9:57 PM Message:
6x6,
This afternoon I went back and took a better look. Ys, there is some rotten wood underneath but I still think the rusted rebar is the culprit. Plus, I noticed the slab was originally poured at a depth of 6 inches in some areas and only 4 inches in other areas. Yes, this was probably a redneck concrete pour at the time it was first put in. However, the original slab lasted at least 50 years before it collapsed today and there is something to be said for that longevity.
Next week some serious work on this project will begin. I will know more then.
--71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 12:34 AM Message:
Roy,
But did you get your $5000 worth?
We had an entire bedroom ceiling of sheet rock simply fall down in one piece while baby napped. Fortunately his wooden crib stopped the drywall from crushing him!
BRAD --73.102.xxx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 7:19 AM Message:
Brad20K,
$5K worth of what? Hmm?? My morning coffee has not kicked in yet.
In the past, I have had entire sheets of drywall fall from a living room ceiling (unreported roof leak) in one house and in another house the kitchen floor collapsed due to a soft spot in the floor the tenant never reported either. Everything is fixable with money though.
This concrete porch collapse is not anything my tenant did. This was just an old concrete slab which did not have adequate support from underneath. --71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by DJ [VA]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 7:33 AM Message:
I think he's assuming that you wouldn't have paid more than $5K for the place originally.
You're kind of famous for $5K houses : ) --68.229.xxx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 8:43 AM Message:
DJ,
Thanks for the clarification. Yep, this is one of those $5K houses and to this day has been my best cash cow of all time. Occasionally, Murphy's Law happens and this time 1/2 of the front porch collapsed.
It was just last April when I had a vacancy here and I gave this rental a complete top to bottom 5 year rehab. I just wish the porch had collapsed in April instead of now when the weather is less than ideal. When most people up north are getting snow, down here we usually just get a cold rain and lots of it. It is raining now. However, this porch has a metal roof which means we can work on rainy days. My estimate to build a new 12 x 24 wood deck is going to run around $7,000 which will consume almost 1 year of rental income. --71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 10:26 AM Message:
since the perimeter walls are still good. I like the idea of collapsing the rest into it's own center. Frame the inside of the walls still standing and then use decking hangers to rebuild with P/treated lumber. 2x10 for walls and 2x8 or 2x 10's on 12 or 16 inch center. Use good decking boards and side secure them with the template machine. (so no screw heads visible) would be nice if you could get joist hangars for edge of walls. then no 2x10 frame would be needed. --99.103.xxx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Scott [IN]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 11:38 AM Message:
My local municipal government had to demolish a concrete parking garage that they owned. It was not old. It became structurally unsound and could not be repaired. The engineers determined the main reason for the premature failure was the builders failed to use epoxy coated rebar (the green stuff). Over years, the concrete developed cracks and allowed water infiltration. The rebar started to rust, and rusty rebar loses adhesion to the concrete. The bond between rebar and concrete is absolutely essential to structural integrity.
Roy, your observation of rusty rebar is possibly a clue to the porch failure. --107.141.xx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 11:44 AM Message:
Myob,
I was going to make a separate post on this but you beat me to it.
Why use 2x10's for the 12 x 24 perimeter walls? I was planning on using 2x8x12's for the perimeter walls (ie. rim joists) and also use 2x8x12's for my floor joists which will be 16in. on center with concrete block piers in the middle of the 12 ft. span.
I prefer to use the same dimensional PT lumber (2x8) for everything if possible.
--71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 12:23 PM Message:
Scott,
The rebar used in this porch was not the round corrugated bars that are used in modern concrete construction. This rebar appears to be the steel fencing that someone would use to build a 4ft high wire fence around a backyard vegetable garden. --71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 1:50 PM Message:
Roy,do you need a permit for this work? your code office will have size requirements for the lumber based on how far it will span,even if you dont need or dont get a permit it would be a good idea to find out what would be required,they have those requirements because that is what will work and not coolapse in the future.The rebar that was used was not correct so obviously built by some redneck who didnt understand what should be used,my dad used to build the same way. --72.231.xxx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Chris [CT]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 2:26 PM Message:
So the porch was hollow under the slab? Typically they are full of dirt. --24.45.xxx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Scott [IN]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 5:19 PM Message:
Roy, that's welded wire mesh (or welded wire fabric). Not intended for this application as Ken said. Amazing it lasted this long --107.141.xx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 30, 2021 5:26 PM Message:
Ken,
There has never been a shortage of redneck builders in AL. And if I get a permit, guess what happens next. My current cheap property taxes will go up. The property tax people (appraisers) ride around town with building permits in their cars to verify that the work was done. If yes, an automatic tax increase.
3 years ago, I built another smaller deck at a rental house. I did not get a permit but I did call the rental house inspector and asked him for the lumber sizes and the spans etc. for a 8x8 ft. / 6ft. elevated deck. He did not have a clue. After I told how I wanted to build the deck, he said "yes, I guess that will be okay".
Chris (CT) - Yes this one was hollow under the slab. There is one cinder block pier in the middle of this 12 x 24 slab.
--71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Dec 31, 2021 11:02 AM Message:
use larger lumber for the perimeter because you don't want the hangars at the edge of your frame. 2x10 or 2x12's will give you inch's below the 2x8 hangar's. --99.103.xxx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Dec 31, 2021 2:43 PM Message:
Myob,
Do metal joist hangers provide more or better support over the traditional way of toe-nailing the joist into the perimeter joist? --71.207.xxx.x |
Front porch collapsed (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Jan 1, 2022 6:51 AM Message:
besides being the quickest and the least work-- they are absolutely better way. Toe nails split the wood-- whether toeing from sides or top and bottom.
Roy you can put all the hangars up using a chalk line-- then just drop in the 2x8's.
For your outside job-- i would get either galvanized or steel and spray them with primer before install. --99.103.xxx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Jan 1, 2022 11:51 AM Message:
Well the good news is that you got rid of the of the president you hated so much. Now the only thing you have to contend with is the 200 percent inflation on the new materials you'll need to rebuild. --73.25.xx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Jan 1, 2022 4:30 PM Message:
Roy,yes definately use joist hangers.In my area they are required to meet code although i dont get permits very often but i do the project to code or better so we definately use them --72.231.xxx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Jan 2, 2022 9:47 PM Message:
It takes roughly 30 days for concrete to cure to 90% of its strength. It takes 100 years for it to achieve that last 10% of strength. But during that 100 years, things happen to the environment around the concrete.
I would not be replacing it with new concrete as the environment around the concrete didn't change. Wooden deck would be my choice --24.101.xxx.xxx |
Front porch collapsed (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Jan 3, 2022 4:44 PM Message:
Ray,
No concrete will be used to rebuild this. It will be like building a wooden deck that measures 12 x 24. My lumber cost will be around $1,600.00 and labor about $1,600. The best news is that my tenant will pay for it all with his rents. On the 1st, he made the first payment of $675.00.
Plus, once finished this new deck will add value to the property. --71.207.xxx.x |
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