This question is for LL's whose primary source of monthly income is Rental Income. If you have day job (W-2) you can still answer this question but I am really interested in hearing from full time LL's who have been in business for a min. of 10 years and have at least 5 rental properties.

Question: Based on your conservative lifestyle and the rental market you have chosen to operate in, what is the minimum number of free and clear rental units that you need to support your lifestyle? I am not asking for numbers here. I just want to compare my rental market with yours.

10, also.

I don't need free and clear as long as the cash flow is there. I've got one right now where my monthly net (after mortgage, taxes, insurance, my upkeep fund) is $1245. Add debt load back onto that and it is $1582. My P&I is $347 a month. Having a handful with over $1000 a month in the pocket adds up quickly.

Multi units are the ones that have this kind of cash flow. SF, not nearly as much flowing. I got away from most of my multis a few years ago. I've been creeping back because of the monthly income.

That really depends.

The question shouldn't be the number of units though - it should be what is your dollar amount to support the life style you want.

For some it might be $2,000 and for others it is $10,000 a month.

Nicole,

I requested free and clear only because mortgaged properties adds complications to my question here. If all of your properties are mortgaged to the hilt, then just imagine what it would be like if they were free and clear and then re-calculate your minimum number.

Ray in PA,

MikeA (TX)

I totally agree with you. Even though my min. number is 10, I own 15 free and clear Class C, 2-3/1 bungalows. I plan on adding another 5 and call it quits at 20,...just for the fun of it.

Roy, you are right about the capital gains tax. Right now I was looking to sell one for 225, in fact we

Had come to a verbal agreement with tenant back in August. I was looking at paying almost 30 k on the gain. However with that large bill in Washington, looks like

Homer,

My dentist asked me why I don't sell every house I own since the real estate market is so hot right now. I tried to explain to him that my monthly cash flow is worth much more to me than selling the houses outright. Why sell the goose that lays a golden egg each month and I have 15 geese here? My dentist did not a clue as to what I was talking about.

Al (MO)

Ray and Al nailed it. Dollars, not houses, are the consideration.

Roy, if $10K/month is your number and you had 20 Class C houses free and clear throwing off $500, that would work. But, what if you could trade those houses and get 10 Class Bs that throw off $1000 each? Same income; 10 houses to manage vs. 20. That would improve the quality of your life and leave you more time to pursue other interests.

Or even if they "only" returned a total of $8000 per month...that's still pretty decent living for a single dude in AL who drinks Coors, right?

As we get older, we tend to get more conservative. Class B houses are less risky than C; A is less risky than B, etc. The tenants are generally better quality and have assets we can go after if they don't pay, so they have as much incentive to pay as we have incentive to rent to them. Balances out well for all concerned.

I currently have quite a few residential units, more than a dozen commercial units, a self storage facility, and just recently added a small resort by a nearby lake that's going AirBnb/nightly rental. It's a lot to watch over, but for now I can handle it myself due to efficient policies and procedures, maintenance contractors, and a part-time contracted manager. But, in the next 4 years or so I will likely be downsizing, paying off the last of my remaining debts, buying out equity partners, and scaling down to much fewer units.

I'd be pleased as could be with 5-10 fully paid off, high quality units that I never have to mess with because I have a high-octane, trustworthy manager in charge and just see that mail box money come in each month. $10,000 / month is plenty for me...more than plenty. There's only so much quality craft beer a man can drink in one sitting, then he's just buying rounds for everyone else, which I like to do!

P.S. That's code for being generous with the extra $.

Bogus without knowing several details: do you have employee's? Do you do all the work yourself? What are your monthly expenses and what are your monthly fixed obligations? What are your expenses personally-- not business-- but living costs. Do you need a reserve to buy more property's or are you done needing funds?

I have 63 SFH's and only 1 mortgage. Rents run 975 to 1500.

I spend "every" penny "every" month. Spend on employee's and upgrading property's along with MY DRAW. Pay cash for everything now.

When I had 63 properties and there were 30 mortgages I did the same. The reason being I was done buying property's. If you don't need a nest egg then why have extra money hanging around? OH so I can pay my fair share in TAXES.... and ----------

Lets not forget Taxes and insurance is not escrowed any longer so that is in reserve-- a big chunk of $$. Payroll tax big each month along with payroll..

MYOB,

I tried to keep my post here as simple as possible but you came along and made it complicated. There is no right or wrong answer here, everyone's situation (lifestyle) is different and

everyone will have a different answer.

Sid- I agree with most of what you said. However, if I had invested in Class B houses, it would have taken me much longer (years) to pay off the debt to have free and clear houses. Class B houses here cost a min. of 3-5 times of what I pay for Class C and the rent differences here between B and C's are small. Here, smart investors buys C's and some D's,..and not the 'alligator houses' in the A and B hoods. I assume you know what an alligator house is and I hope you don't have to feed one or more each month!

If I needed 10K/M to live on I would die. I guess I live much more frugal then most.

AllyM,

One of the houses I sold last year had an upcoming massive plumbing repair issue that meant having to replace over 300 feet of underground 4inch sewer line from the house to main sewer. Min. of $10K but could be more as my plumber told me. I sold this house cause I did not want to deal with this expense and hassle. The other house I sold last year was a 'bum magnet' and I just got tired of evicting every tenant that rented that house.

Roy yes so simple a child can do it????

How in the heck did mine become complicated? you gave half A** facts and now want fiction. What a j k!

Stop treating us like your tenants from Dothan-- OK?

Myob,

Go back and read Sisco's answer. He answered my question in the most straight forward manner and without adding any unnecessary details as to # of employees, DYI? monthly expenses, etc.

Some LL's here do have much higher overhead and expenses than others but that does not matter because there is no right or wrong answer right here.

I do apologize if I have offended you,..it was not intentional.

Roy, for sure....I'm not advocating that you START with 10 Class Bs, but that's where you might end up. Trade out your Cs for Bs 2 for 1.

Example, I now own about twice as much as I want to keep long-term. The purpose of which is leverage, though not in the way most folks here mean it. You know me...

With equity partners, I've manage to pick a lot of property the past 2 years. The plan is to let them grow in value as we boost rents and also throw off cash flow. In about 5 years or so, we exit, and I use my share of the proceeds (cash flow and share of net sale proceeds) to pay off my remaining debts and keep the properties I want free and clear.

Sid,

Roy I read everyone's answer. Those answers were not my experience. I go by facts and you asked for others experience.

I'm sorry Roy I don't have simple answers to your complicated question. Your question for sure didn't have a right or wrong answer-- I gave you the right answer for me. I didn't scrimp on details-- but gave you as much detail as I could.

"YES" Roy you did insult me but you didn't hurt my feelings.

You say unnecessary details-- having employees you are responsible for PAY WISE is not an unnecessary detail-- not to them.

Roy,

It’s about PROFIT and CASH FLOW. Number of units is irrelevant.

If a person needs $10,000 in today’s dollars, run the numbers on their existing portfolio and divide the cash flow into the $10,000.

Tip: that $10,000 will not be enough 10 years from now.

All real estate is local so rents vary and local cost of living.

My activity right now is to

- only buy in my Self Directed Roth 401k so I do not pay income taxes on the profits. This is HUGE and EVERY investor should be doing this!

Wifey was concerned about a recent Roth401k purchase UNTIL I showed her how, if we lost everything except that 401k, it will provide basic living expenses for life into our old age.

- 1031 exchanges. I am selling mulitple small houses and delaying that capital gains tax by rolling the depreciation into one larger, nicer, higher rent home.

Example: sell 3 homes clearing $400 each and exchange them for one home clearing $1200. I just reduced my workload and kept my cash flow without paying the govt a penny, gaining a home that is much easier to rent and maintain.

I am bumping into age issues - mine and the house’s!

The 100 year old houses I bought 30 years ago are now 130 years old and have outdated floor plans, buyers don’t want “antique” anymore, want new, etc.

Plus I’ve done this for 44 years and am having fun playing while I still can.

Inflation: I have watched local landlords who just kept their basic props but bills and medical costs increased over time. Once rich they are now poor LLs.

Hope I did not complicate your question too much!

So ROY are you going to belittle BRADS post? Comon man look it's 15 or 20 lines long and took some thought to put together.

Oh thats right you want simple answers!!!!!!!!!

Brad20K,

I agree that Profit and Cash flow are important but the # of units is equally important too. Most investors here seem to think buying multi-units is much better than SFH because more units under the same roof produce more income. But to determine just how 'profitable' those multi-units actually are,...that is where this conversation gets complicated and I was trying to avoid this in my original post.

I agree that $10K today will buy less in the future than what it does today, however, my original post was asking for today's dollars and # of units today and not trying to speculate about the future which no one can predict.

I am not trying to disagree with what you (and myob) are saying, I just think both of you have read more into my original question than what I was asking. It was like me asking for a simple drink of water and you all poured a 5 gallon bucket of water on my head. I will have to be more careful about what I ask for here.

My 2 word (direct) answer to your question, must have been

the highlight of your day !

Roy, given the way we do business it is honestly hard to say how much money we NEED each month/year to live. In 2010 it was one number, in 2012 or whenever the ACA went into effect it was triple that just to pay for health insurance and deductibles (he's on Medicare now, 2022 for me so yay??)

AND we kept buying and renovating, and the renovations cost more and more to do the same thing so it's hard to even budget for them anymore, just have to plow ahead and finish.

WMH,

It would depend on what rents are. If each house is clearing $100 a month, you need a lot of them. Around here a decent 3-2-2 brings $2500 a month and if you can live moderately, you don't need a lot of them.

Roy,

My answer is the first 2 sentences.

The rest is free info because ya know I love ya! No charge!

Jason MI very impressive. can you expand some on your answer? your debt is pretty loan considering the number of SFH's you have. What reason are you still working for someone else? Not just for insurance? Can you share your NOI on those 45 per month? Do you have a full time MMan and who does your books?