--68.63.xxx.xxx

Your tenants probably can’t get gas in their name due to past due bills. Keep your insurance up and don’t worry about it. --24.152.xxx.xx

NE - Does anything with your tenants safety concern you at all? --68.63.xxx.xxx

Roy, not really, I don’t have your level of worry in my business. If I have a 14-2 circuit on a 15 amp breaker and they continuously overload it and burn the house down, that’s their fault and that’s why I have insurance. You can GFi every plug if you want for $20 + a piece and have them call you when everything starts tripping. Or you can put a 20 amp breaker on a 15 amp line so the space heater doesn’t trip the breaker and burn the house down that way. Your drawing so much power through those plugs with space heaters that heat is a by-product. --24.152.xxx.xx

You stated yourself that you cannot get them to stop doing this. So you can either remove the tenant or not worry about it. Because the second you leave the house, they are plugging those back in. --24.152.xxx.xx

The melted outlet is a result of them unplugging the heater while it’s on and heating. As long as your breakers are properly sized to the conductors, there’s not much you can do short of installing dedicated 20a branch circuits throughout the property. --172.56.x.xxx

And the 20 amp circuit solution ran to rooms for these people to use their space heaters takes you beyond what is required by code. Why would you go beyond code? Are you going to raise the rent for doing this? --24.152.xxx.xx

The melted outlet could have also been a result of it being worn out. If space heaters are going to be used (they will be), you need to make sure all of your outlets hold the plugs solidly with no wiggle. If they aren’t solid, electrical arcing will occur, which is the cause of electrical fires. If the house is old, you should replace all of the outlets and call it good. --172.58.xxx.xxx

I doubt it though. --50.82.xxx.xxx

I am not a legal expert here but I am just repeating what one of my early mentors told me about 'what is the worst that can happen'. --68.63.xxx.xxx

In other houses of mine, I have those same 240 volt wall mounted electric heaters you mentioned. And for the same reasons, my tenants will not use them and continue to use their Walmart 120 volt space heaters. --68.63.xxx.xxx

Roy, that’s why you always go worst case scenario. If you’re at code, you are at code. Like I said, you cannot out build stupidity. Insurance and more insurance and more insurance. And yes, I am ice cold. If I have a primary heat source in the house and my wiring is done to code and I have insurance and my tenants are fully screened, my job is done. If they use a secondary heat source and overload my circuits and burn my house down and get injured, I call my insurance and I zip my lips.. --174.249.xx.xx

Roy, you could send them a bill for changing out the plugs and look at them ice cold and say if this ever happens again pack your stuff and get out of here. --174.249.xx.xx

3 years ago, when this house got a total top to bottom rehab ($18K),..a modern breaker box was installed and all 240 circuits/receptacles were replaced. All of the inside 120 volt wall outlets got replaced but the wires feeding those outlets were not replaced since they had no damage. This is a 1940's vintage 2/1 house. All plumbing in the house was re-plumbed with PEX also. --68.63.xxx.xxx

It seems to me they will B!%*h about how much it takes to heat or cool, no matter what, so I've mostly stuck with the "consumer based use cost" theory when answering what are utility costs? --71.219.xx.xxx

I have had a discussion with my master electrician and he recommends installing a 'home run' 20amp circuit in each bedroom. Would you all agree? --68.63.xxx.xxx

Ask your barber if you need a haircut. --174.198.xx.xx

Just remember when the raging inferno is over with and you have a 'living witness' that gets rolled into the courtroom in a wheelchair with multiple oxygen tanks,...and of course your tenant will lie to judge as to how the fire started,...need I say anymore here? This is an ambulance chasers 'dream come true' type case. --68.63.xxx.xxx

I would first check out and find which outlets in each room have 12 gauge wiring hook up to a full 20 amp breaker --- then I would label it "Safe for small space heaters". --47.155.xx.xxx

My master electrician, who did all electrical work here in 2018, will do a complete electrical check on this house before I re-rent. That will happen early next week. All of my electrical and plumbing needs are handled by certified and licensed trades people. Plus, all of my houses get inspected by the city so that I can get a Certificate of Occupancy. If one of my houses burns down, I can assure you that I will not be the only defendant in the courtroom. --68.63.xxx.xxx

Priceless. --24.151.xxx.xx

Then the melted receptacle was caused by the tenant unplugging the heater under load. Unless you have a hammer and a compromised conscious, you can't fix stupid. --73.177.xxx.xx

When you replaced the receptacle, did you find that your master electrician back stabbed the receptacle, or were the wires wrapped around the terminals? Back stabbing them is much faster, but no quality electrician, master or journeyman, would ever use that termination method because of the dangers it presents. Go onto a commercial or industrial job and you’ll never find a back stabbed receptacle. --73.177.xxx.xx

If the house is not well insulated then the cost of heating and cooling will be high. Most jurisdictions it is not legal to use space heaters for a primary source of heating where electric baseboards or natural gas. Here electricity is very expensive compared to natural gas then no one would want to use electric heaters. Before a tenant moves in make sure they sign up for all utilities. A high efficiency split heat pump will use half the power of a electric baseboard heater. If a building was super insulated then there no need for heating or cooling system which is called net zero. --99.236.xxx.xxx

` --68.63.xxx.xxx

--68.63.xxx.xxx

Roy, you do know there are fire inspectors for house fires, correct? --174.198.xx.xx

Of course I know about fire inspectors. 1 year ago, an upscale apartment complex (30 units) here burned to the ground. When the fire inspectors could not definitively determine the actual cause of the fire, they gave their default answer,...'it was probably electrical'. --68.63.xxx.xxx

Well good, then the landlords insurance will pick it up. --174.198.xx.xx

Just because you hire a "professional" doesn't mean it's fool proof. Most LICENSED TRADESMEN will have employee's in training and THEY CAN MAKE AN HONEST MISTAKE! --47.155.xx.xxx

PS; Anyone using the push in wiring connections on receptacles needs to get their head examined for dementia. Firm screw down type connections only folks. Think surface area of contact. Jeesh. --184.57.xxx.xx

How do you stop tenants from doing dangerous things in your property? Frequent inspections to cut it off early along with training the resident what is acceptable and not acceptable. It is real tough to do that if as many other landlords do, try to do things automatically --24.101.xxx.xxx

As we have discussed for years, you can't fix stupid - you think 2021 will be any different? I doubt it, if the overload protection is rated for the wire size then the current demand placed on the removable connection (the plug of the heater and the receptacle of the wall) will show signs of heating, mostly these outlets cost below 1 dollar, so when you show a place take a few minutes and turn the breaker off and replace it - takes 7-10 minutes and done... Showing it to anyone besides your spouse is purely a waste of time - and even your spouse will not understand or care why it is brittle from heat, but when you take 15 minutes longer to get to your favorite fishing spot he or she will know why and you throw this melted outlet out into the lake and hope you don't know who pulls it back rather than a nice fish. --76.188.xxx.xxx

I agree you can't fix stupid. And due to all of the unvaccinated people here, I will not be doing any more in home inspections. --68.63.xxx.xxx

The more fear and worry you have, the more insurance you need Roy. Worry about space heaters, up your insurance. Cancel inspections due to the convid-19, up your insurance. Sleep easy. --24.152.xxx.xx

Most of my Class D rental houses are insured for about $35,000. If one of them burns to the ground, I doubt I will get check for $35K because insurance companies like to use 'depreciation' in calculating how much they should pay out. It gets complicated. --68.63.xxx.xxx

I had a $90,000 fire and they paid every bit. --24.152.xxx.xx

Roy, if you don’t think your insurance will pay, why do you have it? --24.152.xxx.xx

I don't worry much about anything. Most of the big name well known insurance companies will not insure my rental properties. What is left are insurance companies that no one has ever heard of and they will insure anything if the premiums are paid by the due date. I just hope I never have a catastrophic claim with them. --68.63.xxx.xxx

Lets quit talking about insurance here. It is getting boring. --68.63.xxx.xxx

Well, insurance is your answer unless you run dedicated lines & get paid in increased rent. My guess is that if you advertise 20 amp plugs in each room that it’s not going to increase your rent amount or drop your vacancy rate. So we’re back to insurance. If you drop it, carry liability at least. --24.152.xxx.xx

If concerned about fires can consider installing a Uponor commercial pex sprinkler system where pex pipe connects up all the sprinkler heads. The least costly for materials and labour to install a sprinkler system where cast iron is very labour intensive to connect up the piping. I doubt they could a new house for $35,000 to meet current building and fire code standards with present cost of materials and labour. --99.236.xxx.xxx

--72.173.xx.xxx

I got around this last turnover by moving the electric stove to another unit and installing a natural gas stove and when the water heater went down he got a gas water heater. That gave him the incentive to keep a gas account open. --216.23.xxx.xx

In my town, if you pull a toilet off the bathroom floor,...you are required to have a licensed plumber put the toilet back down for you and a permit has to be pulled for this. I failed a rental inspection because my handyman did not get a permit to re-set a toilet. I kid you not,...plumbing codes in my town are strict and very frustrating. By eliminating gas appliances, I eliminate a lot of problems. --68.63.xxx.xxx

Dang Roy. We pull toilets and replace water heaters a lot. Sorry to hear that. --216.23.xxx.xx

At every turnover, I have to pay $50.00 to my city's building dept. for a rental house inspection. When the inspector sees something in the house that requires a permit, they check their data base for paid permits and if none, I fail the inspection because one of my hired subs did not pull a permit. Rental house and multi-unit inspections are a huge revenue source for the city. --68.63.xxx.xxx

What happens if fail inspection if permit wasnt pulled for the work? --107.77.xxx.xxx

Install electric furnaces. --149.76.xxx.xxx

John CT, how would they know? You think they count the plugs in the room each time? --24.152.xxx.xx

If you installed dedicated 20amp outlets they would probably still use a different outlet. I don’t have this problem because houses up here generally have central heat. If the system is working properly then there is no need for space heaters. Which leads me to believe that Sisco has the answer. Furnaces. --76.179.xxx.xx

What is the cost to run the gas heaters at 85 degrees so they can always be in their shorts? Could you raise rents and include heat so you pay the bill? --75.67.xxx.xxx

All electric space heaters draw 12.5 amps (12.5 amps times 120 volts gets u to 1500 watts). Every elec outlet is rated for at least 15 amps, so something is wrong. Either the outlet was worn and causing high resistance, or they had a multi-tap on it and had multiple devices plugged in. --73.194.xxx.xxx