M2M is bad idea
Click here for Top Ten Discussions. CLICK HERE for Q & A Homepage
Receive Free Rental Owner Updates Email:  
MrLandlord Q & A
     
     
M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 18, 2021 9:50 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by NE [PA]) Aug 18, 2021 9:58 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by myob [GA]) Aug 18, 2021 10:00 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 18, 2021 10:05 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 18, 2021 10:07 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 18, 2021 10:20 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by myob [GA]) Aug 18, 2021 10:25 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 18, 2021 10:31 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 18, 2021 10:33 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by myob [GA]) Aug 18, 2021 10:39 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 18, 2021 10:45 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by Small potatoes [NY]) Aug 18, 2021 11:57 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by MAP [NY]) Aug 18, 2021 12:05 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by DJ [VA]) Aug 18, 2021 12:34 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Aug 18, 2021 2:20 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 18, 2021 2:42 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by Vee [OH]) Aug 18, 2021 3:14 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 18, 2021 6:11 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Aug 18, 2021 6:19 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by LisaFL [FL]) Aug 18, 2021 11:03 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by Judi [CA]) Aug 19, 2021 1:54 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 19, 2021 7:31 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by Nellie [ME]) Aug 19, 2021 8:56 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by myob [GA]) Aug 19, 2021 11:30 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by LisaFL [FL]) Aug 19, 2021 11:54 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 19, 2021 11:58 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by Nellie [ME]) Aug 19, 2021 7:37 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by Jason [VA]) Aug 20, 2021 4:17 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 20, 2021 4:40 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by LisaFL [FL]) Aug 20, 2021 5:18 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by mike [CA]) Aug 24, 2021 11:48 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by CS [NY]) Aug 28, 2021 11:05 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by T [IN]) Aug 29, 2021 9:42 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by Homer [TX]) Aug 29, 2021 10:43 AM
       M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Aug 29, 2021 2:22 PM
       M2M is bad idea (by Mike [CA]) Aug 29, 2021 3:47 PM


M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 9:50 AM
Message:

Previously, I refused to do M2M because of the seasonal nature of rentals, the market is dead between October and April. After recent discussions here, I have found another good reason M2M puts the landlord at a disadvantage.

M2M puts the tenant in the driver's seat as to when they move out. If they buy a house, they can easily time their notice with their closing. Same thing for any other reason . They can literally move at a moment's notice without incurring Costs other than moving.

If they are on a yearly lease, they have exactly one date each year to move. They have to pay ELT to move at another time. This increases Transaction Cost for the tenant so dissuade them from moving, or if they must move, it compensates you the landlord.

--50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 9:58 AM
Message:

Hmm. Many seasoned investors I know are moving to only M2M for the foreseeable future. Because, you know the thing. Come on, man. --24.152.xxx.xx




M2M is bad idea (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 10:00 AM
Message:

WRONG!

If on a year lease and they don't pay you can't evict-- as shown by those housing people for 10 to 18 months so far.

And the part about "just move out" -- don't know of any state that allows -- just pick up and leave. Proper notice- usually 30 days from when the rent is normally paid be given.

When you have a m2m you can terminate the m2m by giving notice-- and when they don't move you now have a legit reason to evict-- "tenant holding over". YOU CAN"T evict for no rent!!!

3rd-- be prepared to send out your NEW renewals when this fiasco is over. Get your property's spread out with timing that's good for you. Easy months to rent or when you usually take vacation or use holidays. --99.103.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 10:05 AM
Message:

If you think you can't evict for non-payment of rent, why do you think you'd be able to evict for end of tenancy?

Even before the pandemic, I upped my credit requirements to 720 fico, among a host of other requirements. I stay off the radar by only calling prospects, and not telling them which property is mine. Only qualified people get to even see the house .

In almost ten years, I have never evicted a single tenant. I only filed eviction once and tenant agreed to consent judgement and moved out. --50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 10:07 AM
Message:

I think if you are renting M2M to people because you think there's a chance they won't pay the rent, you've already lost.

Because if courts will entertain not eviction due to M2M, who's to say they will let you evict for holding over? Even without moratorium, in MI holdover evictions were already not as fast or easy as non-payment --50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 10:20 AM
Message:

"Get your property's spread out with timing that's good for you. Easy months to rent or when you usually take vacation or use holidays."

Myob, you can only do that with yearly lease...m2m they can move out any month of the year --50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 10:25 AM
Message:

MI holding over is a legit reason to evict-- aka I need my house back.

Second I don't offer m2m to those just signing up. I get a 2 to 3k deposit and all are good income wise and credit wise-- with past rental history. I'm talking renewing leases.

So no I would not offer m2m to a new tenant.

I stand by my answer as to what we're doing and the majority from what I can see. --99.103.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 10:31 AM
Message:

myob ... that makes even less sense . WHy would you be more stringent on a tenant that has been with you for a year than a new tenant? If anything , a brand spanking new tenant that you have no experience with should be a higher risk than an existing tenant. That is, m2m a new tenant !!

As for holding over, yes it is a reason to evict but the notice periods are different and the paperwork is different.

If you are concerned about moratorium prevening eviction for non-payment, why wouldn't be concerned they can prevent it also for holdover? --50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 10:33 AM
Message:

if your 2-3k deposit protects you against a new tenant, it should apply equally to existing, cuz that deposit still there. And of course, you can require employment and credit verification as part of renewal process. --50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 10:39 AM
Message:

Well let me explain the not so obvious. Tenants that have been in property's awhile start getting the entitlement phase. We also charge more for m2m renewals.

New tenants are like new baby's. All nice and cuddly with goo-goo and gaga--- until they S***** on you. Then the honeymoon's over.....

Remember I don't like long term tenants anyway-- I'm different then most here. I like to ROTATE my stock. --99.103.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 10:45 AM
Message:

sorry myob. I have only noticed the opposite. Tenants that are good and don't complain in their first year, they stay good and don't complain later on.

The ones that do complain tend to do so immediately after they move in and you have to beat them down and show who's boss.

Yearly lease doesn't stop you from raising rent or tenants moving out. It only keeps it from happening on the tenant's schedule. I don't care if a tenant stays for a one year or five years. I do want to get that ELT when they do move out.

--50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by Small potatoes [NY]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 11:57 AM
Message:

David,

I do leases for the first year, and I screen well and will keep a unit vacant for months if needed. NY has become very hard to operate. Even w mtm I would have to give extended vacate notice depending on how many years they are in place, up to 90 days.

That said, I think mtm to start is a valid concept, and suitable for lls who will never see a prospect w a 720 score. Certainly not in my C rentals.

I currently am evicting for nonrenewal and received a money judgement. As for the moratorium the questioner had to be completed. Both working, no hardship so I won.

--172.58.xx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by MAP [NY]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 12:05 PM
Message:

If i start a tenancy starting in Oct, I do a 6 month that auto converts to M2M after the winter months are over. --174.208.xx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by DJ [VA]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 12:34 PM
Message:

David and myob:

You do realize, don't you, that you may BOTH be right!

After all, you (we all) are in different markets working with different properties & clientele, and we all have different goals. --68.229.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 2:20 PM
Message:

My take .......where is ELT fees are easy and nearly free money, I should not plan on it as one of my profit centers.

If you fear vacancies during a slow season, is there anything out there that prevents you from writing a five month lease?

I understand the valid concern about having an empty unit open during a slow period in the market. The only thing worse than that is having that same unit occupied by a non-payer who has a BS legal leg to stand on because they are feeding off someone's fear --24.101.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 2:42 PM
Message:

From experience, I have found the good months to fill a vacancy are in the summer so my leases are staggered to end May 1, June 1 , July 1 and August 1. I have a couple houses I plan to renovate the kitchen so their leases end March 1 so it is May when the renovation is done.

Even though my tenants have excellent credit and solid careers, it is difficult for anyone to time the buying of a house. Thus most people have ended their lease by paying ELT. The few that moved out when their lease ended did so because they could live with parents while look for house. --50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by Vee [OH]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 3:14 PM
Message:

Pre-paid 10-12 months as most student rentals operate with holdover increase, either this or 14 day maz as air-bnb vrbo style, the same holdover increase applies if not already scheduled - set out the personal property and change codes or lock inserts. --76.188.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 6:11 PM
Message:

makes no sense to me myob why you want to ďrotateĒ ....my objective is to have long term renewing renters.... --107.77.xxx.xx




M2M is bad idea (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 6:19 PM
Message:

Yes, they can give 30 day notice and move. But I can also give 30 day notice to get them out if I don't like them.

They behave better if all I have to do is give them a 30 day notice to get them out.

Most of my month to month tenants have stayed about the same amount of time as the lease tenants.

The only down side is that they can leave in the winter, but so can the lease tenants. It's not like you can chain them in the basement if they try to escape. If a tenant doesn't want to stay, he is going to leave, no matter what the paperwork says. --76.178.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Aug 18, 2021 11:03 PM
Message:

My feelings are the same as Oregon Woodstock.

In my state the beginning of the tenancy must be a lease over six months to avoid extra tax charges/collection but can revert to month to month thereafter.

I have tended to keep my tenants month-to-month to give us both maximum flexibility since I have the mindset of selling.

For those I still offer annual leases to they do come with an early termination fee and are all designed to end when I prefer them to. If they terminate early and interfere with my plans/schedule Öweíll at least o have the early termination fee.

All my tenants are long term but I understand MYOBís mindset to some extent as well. There are benefits to having more frequent turnovers and you are certainly better able to keep up with the fast rising rent rates that is harder to do with long term tenants.

All my units are way below market value now even with small increases year to year. Then again raises in my area are up 43% in the past two years alone so now I have a conundrum and will have to raise them more substantially this year.

I donít I will lose anyone as they will still be the best rates they can find and if I do I will be thrilled. --75.89.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by Judi [CA]) Posted on: Aug 19, 2021 1:54 AM
Message:

+1 to Oregon Woodsmoke. Month to month only. The world is so volatile now I don't want to be stuck with a problem tenant any longer than I have to.

In one particular case, I had a m2m tenant who was developmentally disabled. She would bring homeless guys to the cottage because she wanted a boyfriend. Of course, they wouldn't leave. She got 2 warnings, and by the 3rd incident that m2m lease was my best, best friend.

With my tenant developmentally disabled, I didn't want to open the eviction can of worms. I gave her a 60-day notice as required by law and grit my teeth during the count-down, letting her know that if she brought someone else home I'd have the police there to remove trespassers and she'd receive a 3-day notice to vacate. If she'd had a year lease, I can't imagine the nightmare.

I did m2m for 20 years. Those who wanted to stay, stayed. Those who wanted to go (and the one person who was told to go) went with proper notice. My longest m2m was 6 years; dream tenant. --67.36.xx.xx




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 19, 2021 7:31 AM
Message:

if you are doing M2M because you don't want to be stuck with a problematic tenant, that horse has already left the barn.

The time to figure out if a tenant will be problematic is during the screening process, and even during the period between application approval and lease signing. You see how they react to requests like utilities turnon and renters ins.

don't open that barn door if you have any doubts....

As for problems that do occur during a year long lease, thats why you have that lease. MI's eviction process for lease violations is the same as for holdover. I can evict if they have lease violations, even if cured. --50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by Nellie [ME]) Posted on: Aug 19, 2021 8:56 AM
Message:

In Maine we canít charge an ELT. That makes a year lease less optimal. Especially since we canít charge a tenant for the balance of the lease. We have to look for a tenant and realistically need to find one in a shorter period of time. --70.20.xx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by myob [GA]) Posted on: Aug 19, 2021 11:30 AM
Message:

Pmh I guess i'm just the odd ball?

Even the grocery store has an expiration date on items.

Many just don't think it through. --99.103.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Aug 19, 2021 11:54 AM
Message:

MYOB,

Yes, you are an oddball- or rather your approach is different than most. It definitely doesnít make you wrong, just a different business model which definitely has some pluses.

You donít let them stay long enough for the places to become filthy, require complete paint jobs or major remodels, have deferred maintenance to attend to or who fall below market in rent amounts.

You do have the hassle of having the potential for lost rent during turnover, and dealing with new unknown tenants.

I can definitely see value in your approach even though mine isnít the same. There is always more work to be done when a long term tenant terminates. So itís a bigger pain but less frequent while I imagine your approach is less of a pain but more frequent. --75.89.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 19, 2021 11:58 AM
Message:

Painting- if you keep the same paint color on every property, all you gotta do is quick rolling on the walls. No cutting in or taping.

--50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by Nellie [ME]) Posted on: Aug 19, 2021 7:37 PM
Message:

The spot painting is good. But we decided that one of units was looking dingy so did a complete repaint and it made a huge difference. So, you canít spot paint indefinitely. --70.20.xx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by Jason [VA]) Posted on: Aug 20, 2021 4:17 PM
Message:

Lessons learned through pain are the easiest to learn. I hope you don't experience the lesson of why annual leases are a bad idea at this time. --73.177.xxx.xx




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 20, 2021 4:40 PM
Message:

Jason, if you rent M2M to a tenant because you worry they will be a problem, that's a sign you shouldn't rent to them in the first place.

I require 720fico, $5000/month. No evictions , no Bk, no collections. Forget the pandemic, since starting rentals almost a decade ago, I have never evicted a single tenant , and only filed eviction once resulting in move out with consent judgement.

Is this foolproof? No . But I think it has one leg up over other screening tricks like in-home inspection . Someone who has a 720 fico knows the value of good credit and will try their hardest to keep it. That means they are forward looking and will want evictions off their record, to the point of moving out on their own if things get tough. --50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Aug 20, 2021 5:18 PM
Message:

David, while what you said is true my experience says extra caution is never a bad thing.

I have had the perfect tenant, professional, high income, excellent creditÖ.turn out to be a hoarder. So niw even for the best applicants Iíve added the in-home visit because you just never know.

All my tenants are long term now but Iíve started only offering MTM upon renewal/original lease expiration because while I too screen well and have no issues due to CovidÖ.you never know.

After 30+ years of good screening Iíve had very little problems but there have been the rare occasions where a previously wonderful tenant goes bad, turns on you etcÖ.

Rare, but possible and with this government overreach, why take more chances than you need to.

Nothing at all wrong with keeping your flexibility. --75.89.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by mike [CA]) Posted on: Aug 24, 2021 11:48 AM
Message:

MTM...no exceptions. never, none. a lease is an "Estate for Years" which equates to ownership interest. you want a partner? go ahead and grant that lease. when tenants ask me "why only MTM"? i tell 'em straight out "if you turn out to be a PITA i can toss you easier". those who demand a lease can seek housing elsewhere. i do not give ownership in any level in my units.

those who think they have a firm grasp on the new eviction laws need to wake up. in calif ALL the atty's i know that were doing them left the business last year and only some are now re-entering at nearly double the rates of past years. the game has changed...this is no time to give ground to tenants who may have larceny in their hearts. be nice all you want...if it ends badly remember the warnings you received here from folks with scars --75.80.xx.xx




M2M is bad idea (by CS [NY]) Posted on: Aug 28, 2021 11:05 PM
Message:

In highly regulated states (ie NY where it is illegal to ask about eviction history - LOL), MTM is much better. You are not in the driver's seat, but at least you are not married for life.

My old lease used to charge higher security deposits for pets but now, state says you cannot take more than one month's security deposit for any reason.

My old lease was 3rd day of month, rent was late. State stipulates can't charge late fee until day 5.

Anything that was in my lease that was useful is now outlawed, hence, everyone is now MTM.

Leases benefit the tenant here in NY, not the landlord. --216.59.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by T [IN]) Posted on: Aug 29, 2021 9:42 AM
Message:

MYOB- your not an oddball. I agree with everything you have stated. I have a few long term tenants that have developed the entitlement mentality. One is getting notice to vacate tomorrow. Time to rotate after 11 yrs.... --174.208.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by Homer [TX]) Posted on: Aug 29, 2021 10:43 AM
Message:

I have been doing M to M for 18 years. After the first year is up, it goes M to M. Actually puts me in control. . I can raise the rent when I want, or terminate a lease when I want. I have many tenants over 10 years. They fear I will terminate their lease at a moments notice, and actually preform better. Sure I get 3-4 turns a year, but out of 29, itís not bad. --66.169.xxx.xxx




M2M is bad idea (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 29, 2021 2:22 PM
Message:

If you are doing m2m instead of yearly lease, maybe reconsider if you should be renting to that person in the first place....

--50.4.xxx.x




M2M is bad idea (by Mike [CA]) Posted on: Aug 29, 2021 3:47 PM
Message:

We all got a heaping dose of reality imposed on us this last year. Tenants that were fine were encouraged by governor's and the president to withhold rents and guaranteed no consequence...to give them the security of a lease makes you a chump. --75.80.xx.xx





Reply:
Subject: RE: M2M is bad idea
Your Name:
Your State:

Message:
M2M is bad idea
Would you like to be notified via email when somebody replies to this thread?
If so, you must include your valid email address here. Do not add your address more than once per thread/subject. By entering your email address here, you agree to receive notification from Mrlandlord.com every time anyone replies to "this" thread. You will receive response notifications for up to one week following the original post. Your email address will not be visible to readers.
Email Address: