ice obligations
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ice obligations (by Carl [MA]) Feb 19, 2021 5:59 PM
       ice obligations (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Feb 19, 2021 6:49 PM
       ice obligations (by Landlord ofthe Flies [TX]) Feb 19, 2021 6:51 PM
       ice obligations (by Robert J [CA]) Feb 19, 2021 7:24 PM
       ice obligations (by Steve [MA]) Feb 19, 2021 8:01 PM
       ice obligations (by Carl [MA]) Feb 19, 2021 8:23 PM
       ice obligations (by Mike45 [NV]) Feb 19, 2021 8:35 PM
       ice obligations (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Feb 19, 2021 8:46 PM
       ice obligations (by Steve [MA]) Feb 20, 2021 5:42 AM

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ice obligations (by Carl [MA]) Posted on: Feb 19, 2021 5:59 PM

So I heard through the grapevine, that our second-floor tenet claims he fell going down the snow-covered outdoor staircase to get to the dumpster. This is the same tenant who hasn't paid for over six months and we can't get rid of them because of the courts are backed up for evictions. He claims that he was in the hospital for the last month because he injured his shoulder. He is also a disabled veteran in his 30s after getting into a car accident in which he had a brain injury and he has severe mood swings. So this hospital is a VA mental hospital.

He is also the biggest pita I have ever met by far, in over 100 tenants. Another tenant said that he told him that he is never going to pay rent or move. I don't know that's his mental instability talking but I have my doubts about the fall. The same tenant that I swear purposely breaks things and then claims that's why he doesn't have to pay because of the deficiencies in the apartment.

Anyway earlier this fall because last year we lost the person would plow the upper parking lot where he and another tenant park their car and the person used to do snow shoveling said they were not going to do it anymore. So we sent tenants a message saying that they were going to be responsible for their own egress and paths.

This is a 4 Plex apartment house. it happened a month ago and this is the first we've heard about it, but I can just see this guy calling one of the TV contingency lawyers about a lawsuit. Do you think that letter in any way protects us?

ice obligations (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Feb 19, 2021 6:49 PM

Place a small bucket of rock salt in the lobby just before the residents walk outside. If the folks are walking past rock salt on to an icy sidewalk, they will share at least part of the liability as they misjudged the weather.

If they are misjudging it, it is easier for them to excuse you. --24.154.xx.x

ice obligations (by Landlord ofthe Flies [TX]) Posted on: Feb 19, 2021 6:51 PM

If you heard it through the grapevine, I wouldn't worry about it. Forget about it until he mentions it. Who knows if it really happened or not. He may have just made it up.

May be worth your while to throw some salt on the steps or shovel them just in case.

If he wants money, just give him a discount on next month's rent that he probably won't pay.

ice obligations (by Robert J [CA]) Posted on: Feb 19, 2021 7:24 PM

I just finished covering a wooden staircase with Composite Anti-Slip Stair Tread 48 in. Grey Step Cover. Cut them down to 36 inches wide and used caulking with stainless steel screws. Cost between $26 to $30 per step.

I also take pictures of my tenants who are dumb as nails by carrying objects up or down steps that are too large, heavy or they are drunk.

On of my tenants has an electric bicycle. She lives up stairs. She wanted to roll the bicycle up and down the step by putting a flat 8" wide plank on the edge of the steps. Making it possible for anyone to kill themselves. I would not allow it. So I installed a Rubber Maid Shed on concrete with a Metal Bicycle rack and gave her a Un-pick able Lock.

Shed worth $500. Concrete base worth $500. Bicycle Rack worth $300. And the Bicycle lock $150. You'd think I was crazy. But sure enough her husband helped to take the bicycle upstairs. The next day when she wanted to ride her bike to work, she took the bicycle down the steps herself, falling on her wrist and fracturing hand, wrist and arm bones. Her attorney said I have to cover all of her medical expenses and lost wages. Just hand over $25,000. I mailed the attorney a nice new shinny quarter, $0.25. People have to be responsible for their stupidity.

ice obligations (by Steve [MA]) Posted on: Feb 19, 2021 8:01 PM

Carl, unfortunately since it's a multi family building you a the LL are responsible to maintain all egresses including stairs & walkways in a safe condition. This incudes treating for snow & ice as needed. FYI if this was a SFD you could have a clause in your rental agreement making the tenant responsible for dealing with snow & ice.

I strongly suggest that get & read a copy of Property Management for Massachusetts Rental Owners by H John Fisher. You should also join & participate in a local LL group. I highly recommend // It would also be good to familiarize yourself with the Ma State sanitation code (// ) as well as any local rules & regulation for rental property.

ice obligations (by Carl [MA]) Posted on: Feb 19, 2021 8:23 PM


Re: that law, I might understand if there were common areas but in this place everyone has their own egress and pathway exclusive to them.Would placing sand and salt near every one of there exits and top of stairs help?

In an aggressive snow storm, every ten minutes of dealing with snow would not be enough to prevent a slip and fall.

ice obligations (by Mike45 [NV]) Posted on: Feb 19, 2021 8:35 PM

There is a legal doctrine called "subsequent remedial repairs." A classic example is if someone trips on loose carpet in a movie theater. If the theater owner repairs the carpet, is he thereby admitting liability for the accident?

As a matter of public policy, the answer is generally "no." But the fact that it took only half a dozen concrete nails to tack down the carpet can be used to show that the owner could have done the repair before the accident. So doing the repairs after the fact can be dangerous for the owner.

How does this apply here? Well, if Carl now provides rock salt at the foot and top of all the stairs, is that an admission that Carl could have done so before the winter season began? "If Carl had bought 8 buckets, and filled them with sand or rock salt, this accident would have ben avoided!" Kind of like a horse and the barn door, I think. But it could help for any future falls.

ice obligations (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Feb 19, 2021 8:46 PM


If you are NOT willing to shift some of the responsibility for effective judgement by your residents then no I don't believe placing the bucket of rock salt near exits will help. Nope instead, you are agreeing to be responsible for their actions and the need for you police them constantly.

Which approach sounds more palatable to you - Camping out or empowering? That same snow storm might require you to move into that building until maintenance every 10 minutes stops.

I live in the snow belt. We get LAKE EFFECT SNOW. It gets measured in feet. Locals around know how to deal with it and we prefer it over ice routinely. That said, if you go outside when you are getting two inches an hour for the next 10 hours........some level of responsibility falls on to the person who elects to go out in bad weather. --24.154.xx.x

ice obligations (by Steve [MA]) Posted on: Feb 20, 2021 5:42 AM

Carl, did you actually read what the law says about egress in MA multi family properties? It doesn't say things like what if I now provide salt / sand. As far as your statement "aggressive snow storm, every ten minutes of dealing with snow would not be enough to prevent a slip and fall", I doubt that most reasonable people would expect you tp be standing by to brush aside every snow flake as it hits the walk / stairs. I have several neighbors who have heated walks & driveways. Even those can't melt the snow / ice fast enough during an aggressive storm to keep them clear of all ice & snow.

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