How many animals (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Jan 18, 2021 1:42 AM
How many animals (by razorback_tim [AR]) Jan 18, 2021 6:56 AM
How many animals (by Ken [NY]) Jan 18, 2021 7:55 AM
How many animals (by RentsDue [MA]) Jan 18, 2021 8:02 AM
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Jan 18, 2021 8:39 AM
How many animals (by Dee Ann [WI]) Jan 18, 2021 9:00 AM
How many animals (by Gene [OH]) Jan 18, 2021 9:00 AM
How many animals (by James [GA]) Jan 18, 2021 9:08 AM
How many animals (by BillW [NJ]) Jan 18, 2021 9:49 AM
How many animals (by S i d [MO]) Jan 18, 2021 9:52 AM
How many animals (by Doogie [KS]) Jan 18, 2021 10:43 AM
How many animals (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Jan 18, 2021 11:23 AM
How many animals (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Jan 18, 2021 11:25 AM
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Jan 18, 2021 11:27 AM
How many animals (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Jan 18, 2021 11:30 AM
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Jan 18, 2021 12:09 PM
How many animals (by Lana [IN]) Jan 18, 2021 1:12 PM
How many animals (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Jan 18, 2021 6:03 PM
How many animals (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Jan 18, 2021 6:03 PM
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Jan 18, 2021 10:19 PM
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Jan 18, 2021 10:21 PM
How many animals (by plenty [MO]) Jan 18, 2021 10:45 PM
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Jan 19, 2021 1:40 AM
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Jan 19, 2021 1:25 PM
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Jan 19, 2021 6:10 PM
How many animals (by WMH [NC]) Jan 19, 2021 6:15 PM
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Jan 19, 2021 7:45 PM
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Jan 19, 2021 8:52 PM
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Jan 20, 2021 9:15 AM
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Jan 20, 2021 10:16 AM
How many animals (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Jan 21, 2021 12:16 AM
How many animals (by JB [OR]) Jan 21, 2021 1:49 AM
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Jan 21, 2021 12:18 PM
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Jan 21, 2021 12:20 PM
How many animals (by WMH [NC]) Jan 21, 2021 1:18 PM
How many animals (by JB [OR]) Jan 21, 2021 1:29 PM
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Jan 21, 2021 2:27 PM
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Jan 22, 2021 2:12 PM
How many animals (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 1:42 AM Message:
1 Service dog (pitbull)
1 ESA dog
1 pet dog
petscreening.com approved the service pitbull with one of those online scam certificates.
Pickle: we allow only 2 animals.
BRAD
--73.102.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by razorback_tim [AR]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 6:56 AM Message:
What would I do? If they are a qualified tenant and pass all screening, I would rent to them.
There used to be a guy that posted here all the time and frequently asked "Do you want to be right or rich?" Seems like that might apply here? --70.178.x.xx |
How many animals (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 7:55 AM Message:
Not me,i would find a reason not to rent to them and there will be one --72.231.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by RentsDue [MA]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 8:02 AM Message:
How many? Too many. I would find another reason also. Did pet screening.com also approve the ESA? --75.133.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 8:39 AM Message:
Brad: I don't see why you have taken step backwards on this and now seem to be blaming the website over it. (Note that I've been telling people (who mostly don't take pets anyhow) to not use that site for a while now, but whatever...)
I don't know what you expect petscreening.com to "confirm" with an actual Service Animal. There isn't anything they can ask for really unless the disability is not obvious. And, if that is the case, they can only ask what task the animal performs. They don't need a certificate -- from an online place or even a real doctor.
We've discussed this before. You seem to put Service Animals and ESAs into the same category when it comes to verifying them and they are NOT the same at all.
- John...
--67.209.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by Dee Ann [WI]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 9:00 AM Message:
Do you want/need these tenants or not Brad?
Did you do a home visit? Have they passed all other checks, up to date on rent payments in 2020, what does their last LL say, etc.
Since you can't charge for the ESA/service animals, you might charge above your normal "pet" fee for the remaining pet if you want them.
If you don't want them, tell them only 2 dogs. But honestly, do you think they might sneak the third in after awhile anyway? Especially if their pitbull was approved with an online fake certificate from petscreening.com
I personally wouldn't take them, but you are more forward thinking than I, and if all else is oky doky on their application you are in a pickle. --198.54.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by Gene [OH]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 9:00 AM Message:
Brad, how did the home visit turn out? I would think that three dogs would be hard on any house. --99.165.xx.xxx |
How many animals (by James [GA]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 9:08 AM Message:
Tim - classic.
I've taken that phrase and apply it almost daily. --67.41.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by BillW [NJ]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 9:49 AM Message:
Consider the chemistry of the pets. Will a rambunctious dog keep a cat from using its litter box, for example? --71.187.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 9:52 AM Message:
I am skeptical, at best, about a pit bull service animal. They are an aggressive breed and do not possess any special quality that would make them easier to train or perform tasks better than dozens of other breeds one commonly sees.
Regardless of my skepticism...we must follow the law.
The 2 minute in home inspection ought to tell whether or not to approve these applicants.
--107.216.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by Doogie [KS]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 10:43 AM Message:
I'm with Sid. Pit bull doesn't seem to be good service animal. Had someone apply for place with a pit bull ESA once. I didn't believe that either, but she provided documentation from a local psychologist, so I got it approved. Then I checked on income and she didn't qualify. So, she was a no. Got a nice negative google review with a threat of a lawsuit out of it. Sill waiting on the process server..... --70.179.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 11:23 AM Message:
I'm not at all sure you can count the service dog and emotional support dog in the animal tally, but you could try telling them there is a two animal limit, so you will allow the service dog and the emotional support dog, but the pet has to go if they want to rent.
You might get away with that. Before they have signed lease, you can change your mind and make it a "no pets allowed" unit.
I don't know how HUD would see that, and I would expect them to just go online and get another service dog certificate for the pet.
If they have passed all the other screening to your satisfaction, you might be stuck with them. Maybe the home inspection can keep them out if there is any pet--er, animal-- damage to the unit or grounds. --76.178.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 11:25 AM Message:
You might run that by your insurance company and make them put it in writing that the pitbull service animal is covered.
Also, it should be in your written criteria that pets might possibly be accepted if they pass the screening and get approved. Don't go with a blanket "two pets OK" --76.178.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 11:27 AM Message:
I don’t get it. Service animals have proof of training, no? It’s the ESA that doesn’t need proof of trading.
Those bogus certificates don’t make a service a dog a service dog. Why didn’t you ask for more clarification on this? It sounds like a mistake was made.
Because if the way around the whole rules is for anyone to claim any dog is a service dog with a fake certificate they purchased doesn’t that put us back to square 1?
I would sell the house before I’d ever rent to them. --216.186.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by Oregon Woodsmoke [ID]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 11:30 AM Message:
And sorry Doogie, but a good tempered pitbull is ideal for a service animal. They are smart, devoted, extremely trainable, and a very good size for most service animal jobs.
The big problem with choosing a pitbull for a service animal is that they are not welcome anywhere, and that makes them a bad choice to invest all of that training into. It's expensive to train a service animal and it takes a lot of time, so a more acceptable animal is normally chosen.
The other problem is that the breed runs about 50/50 percent between good dogs and potentially dangerous dogs.
But a well bred American Staffordshire Terrier from a hobby breeder who breeds for temperament is about as good a dog as you can get anywhere. --76.178.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 12:09 PM Message:
Exactly Oregon, that’s why they aren’t a good choice for a service dog.
For all the poor choice reasons you mentioned. I try to avoid those who show a history of making poor choices and only an idiot would purposely chose a pitbull to be a bonafide service dog. I prefer tenants to have common sense. --216.186.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by Lana [IN]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 1:12 PM Message:
I thought you were through with petscreening.com after this fiasco. You are talking a lot of dog poop here and you might want to get Pooprints involved. My neighbors across the road from my 1000ft drive called the county sheriff 3 times to report my dog pooping in their yard. Each time they did not see it but it was from a large animal and she is large. One of the sheriffs was very nasty to me. The other 2 nice. I live on 70 acres, she guards the farm and stays at home she is diabetic and blind in one eye. I looked up Pooprints and they have a Landlord service were each dog on lease costs $50 to register. You make each tenant with a dog do a cheek swab for DNA and send off with $50. Their DNA is banked and the dog gets a tag to show registration. When you find an illicit dump, collect a sample of poop. Send it off to Pooprints and they run its DNA against all your registered dogs. If you get a match, you can fine the tenant at least $50. Gives you an enforcement tool with dog owning tenants.
I used Pooprints to sample my dog with witnesses. Then ran it against the poop sample rolled into a newspaper and graciously left at my front door. They were NOT a match and I sent copies of all to neighbor. The put a GPS tracker on my dog and mapped what she did with her time. That was a hoot. I was impressed with Pooprints.
There folk do not do anything but drop red flags all over. They have to have a deniable issue somewhere. --216.23.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 6:03 PM Message:
Well with three animals maybe they plan on opening up a local petting zoo.
This might be a time where more than 2 animals the fee is $100 a month.
When they say the first ones don't count because they are ESA or SA you can say the third one is a pet. IF an ONLY IF they would pass the in house inspection - I would offer them that. Something tells me though, they will not pass. --24.101.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by Ray-N-Pa [PA]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 6:03 PM Message:
Besides, maybe the service animals needs the ESA --24.101.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 10:19 PM Message:
LisaFL: No, Service Animals do not require proof of training.
They must be trained to perform a task for the disabled person. If it is obvious what the task is (i.e. the person is blind and this is clearly a seeing-eye dog), then you may not ask for anything else. If it is not obvious what the task is (i.e. the disability is not obvious to you), then you may ask what task the animal performs for the person. (You may NOT ask what the disability is -- you may only ask what task the animal performs.)
There is no proof of training. You may not require such.
- John...
--96.40.xx.xx |
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 10:21 PM Message:
Note that that is why petscreening.com can't do much to "screen" Service Animals. There isn't much they can legally ask. You, as a landlord, are the one dealing directly with the person that is disabled. Some website can't see if the disability is "obvious" to you or not.
- John...
--96.40.xx.xx |
How many animals (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Jan 18, 2021 10:45 PM Message:
One of the animals is not a pet. So there are two pets. --172.58.xx.xx |
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Jan 19, 2021 1:40 AM Message:
John, service dogs “supposedly” have been trained and if they have been trained they would have proof of training. But I understand you can’t ask for proof of training. So what’s the point of there being any differentiation between service animals and emotional support animals? No worries, question is rhetorical.
So pretty much anyone can claim anything they want to about their animals. But landlords can verify the validity of the documentation they do provide.
Sounds like in Brad’s case the screening service didn’t verify the presented from the internet letter churning service the applicant presented. It still would be interested to know why they made the determination that it was acceptable. They must have determined something to cause them to conclude the request was valid for a service animal.
But in reality, I don’t really care. I’m easily able to find qualified tenants that meet my standards who don’t have multiple animals they claim to be service animals. It is just tiring to see what property owners have been made to put up with. If you have a real service animal why wouldn’t you be required to verify it. It makes no sense but here we are. --216.186.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Jan 19, 2021 1:25 PM Message:
There is a huge point in differentiating between Service and ESAs -- because what you can require for them is very different.
I've been repeating that for years. Once they are confirmed/allowed, THEN you have to treat them the same as far as a landlord goes. But you VERIFY them in two VERY different ways.
You keep saying that a landlord can't verify. They absolutely can and should verify for ESAs -- which are most commonly abused.
In my experience and from what I've seen here over the past decade, it is VERY rare for anyone to really present a fake SERVICE Animal. (And many states have laws against faking this -- but not ESAs.)
As for Brad's situation, I still maintain that there is almost nothing that the screening service could have done for a SERVICE Animal. There isn't any documentation to ask for -- "internet churned" or otherwise. It is up to the landlord to ask what task the animal performs because it is the landlord who decides if the disability is "obvious" or not.
Again, almost no-one fakes real Service Animals. They fake ESAs. Which you SHOULD follow up and require proper documentation for.
- John...
--67.209.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Jan 19, 2021 6:10 PM Message:
John, I hear you but I guess I don’t understand you. How would anyone know someone is faking a service dog if you aren’t able to verify anything? All they have to do is say it’s a service animal and make up a task they perform and you simply must accept it. How can the powers that be see how totally one-sided and ripe for abuse this is?
At least with an ESA some sort of documentation needs to be presented and can thus be verified.
Rather than fake the ESA the smarter thing to do is fake the service dog. None of it passes the reasonableness test. --216.186.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Jan 19, 2021 6:15 PM Message:
You can ask 2 questions about a claimed service dog:
"Is the dog required of a disability?"
and
"What is the dog trained to do?"
There is no such thing as a Service Dog registry so any paperwork is totally bogus and the fact they HAVE paper right there proves lying. --50.82.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Jan 19, 2021 7:45 PM Message:
LisaFL: I agree with you (and I think most LLs do). It is way too easy to fake a Service Animal. And I am surprised more don't do it. I think they don't because they just don't realize how easy it is. They, like you, think there is some official documentation required. And it just isn't.
- John...
--96.40.xx.xx |
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Jan 19, 2021 8:52 PM Message:
Actually plenty of service dogs have been formally trained. Thus they would have a record of the training. Folks with real service dogs are proud of their dogs and typically like being able to demonstrate what they can do. They don’t like being viewed as fakes. Being able to show they are real and not phony would benefit them.
And no, I didn’t say I thought it was required only that I assumed they would have some sort of records and it could be asked for. You can ask for documentation from a medical provider to prove an ESA so why, just wondering, would they not allow you to ask for documenting for a service dog?
It’s just too easy to fake. I had deaf applicants once. They had a dog. This was not a problem for me because I accepted small pets. Had they had an aggressive dog breed which I didn’t accept all they would have to say is it’s a service dog and just because they were obviously hearing impaired I’m forced to take that at face value? That’s not protecting them from anything. It’s enabling them to get away with something nobody else could. Something very wrong with that. --216.186.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Jan 20, 2021 9:15 AM Message:
LisaFL: Again, NO ONE here said that Service Animals were not trained. I don't know where you got that idea. ALL of them are trained -- they must be trained to perform a task.
However, the law states that you may not request that "record of training." It is not required and may not be required.
So, again, I think we all agree with you that they should have to be trained and should have to show that proof -- but that doesn't change the law. The law does not agree with us all on that.
That is simply the way the law is written. I believe it came to be because the laws about Service Animals were written well before anything about ESAs. They were always used by people with real disabilities (face it, most of us think of Service Animals are being seeing-eye dogs for the blind). They were rarely faked. So, to be fair to those with disabilities, the laws were written so that we couldn't ask for such things. And, it made sense at the time -- it was fair and non-discriminatory to them -- and we rarely saw fakes at all.
THAT is why the law was written that way and THAT is why we can't ask for documentation for a Service Animal.
I'm not arguing with you that that is fair now and how it should be. I'm just telling you the legal issue with trying to ask for documentation that isn't allowed to be asked for. If we want this changed, we need to lobby for that change at the federal level.
All that being said, I STILL think Service Animals are rarely faked. People tend to fake ESAs. I would concentrate on that. Most of us have never seen a fake SERVICE animal -- but most of us have probably been asked about plenty of what were likely fake ESAs.
- John...
--67.209.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Jan 20, 2021 10:16 AM Message:
John, I must not communicate to you clearly for you to think I ever had the idea that service animals were not trained. I’ve stated the exact opposite.
So I don’t have that idea. I’ve never had that idea. In fact I said if they are trained why wouldn’t the landlord be permitted to verify this (either through training records or demonstration). Instead the animal owner can claim anything they want to and the landlord just has to take their word for it.
We can verify income. We can verify criminal history. We can verify rental history, we can verify employment status and history. We can verify ESA documentation. So not being able to verify service animal qualification or need is ludicrous. That is what I said. --216.186.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Jan 21, 2021 12:16 AM Message:
Tim,
So you like my saying!
A fellow LL had an app with 5 ESA cats.
My question is "Where does this end?"
I thought the combination was interesting for discussion.
Here's a phrase given to me by a local LL:
"All requests for support/assistance animals are reviewed by our local Fair Housing office. Please supply the proper documentation. Indiana law states misrepresenting a service animal is fraud and may result in large fines and/or jail time."
BRAD
--73.102.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Jan 21, 2021 1:49 AM Message:
Then the writing is already on the wall. If ESAs are no longer allowed on the airlines, the next easy fake is for them to claim their pets as service animals.
This should get interesting! --73.25.xx.xxx |
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Jan 21, 2021 12:18 PM Message:
Lisa: Sorry for the confusion then. It seemed that out of nowhere you said:
"Actually plenty of service dogs have been formally trained."
That "Actually" made it sound like you were thinking someone had suggested that some aren't trained. That sentence just came off weird to me -- since ALL Service Animals have been trained to perform a task. With that in mind, saying "actually, plenty of service dogs have been trained" just seemed an odd statement to make. Of course they have -- ALL of them. :)
I agree with everything you said in your last post. It is "ludicrous" that we can't verify that training somewhere. Again, I think we all agree with that. Still doesn't change the law that says we can't. :)
We're all on the same page with that, I think.
- John...
--67.209.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Jan 21, 2021 12:20 PM Message:
JB: Indeed, but it will mostly only apply to dogs. Cats can't be classified as "Service Animals", for example. The list for Service is pretty limited.
But, yes, absolutely -- I look forward to the jokers who start pushing their pet dog as a Service Animal to get it on a plane. I WANT the airlines to fight these sorts of things. Because, eventually, it might actually "trickle down" to us LLs a bit. :)
- John...
--67.209.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Jan 21, 2021 1:18 PM Message:
It's a misdemeanor in NC now to represent animals as service or support animals, as they are now calling emotional support animals. --50.82.xxx.xxx |
How many animals (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Jan 21, 2021 1:29 PM Message:
"I WANT the airlines to fight these sorts of things. Because, eventually, it might actually "trickle down" to us LLs a bit. :)"
Bingo! --73.25.xx.xxx |
How many animals (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: Jan 21, 2021 2:27 PM Message:
John,
When I said “actually plenty of service animals have been formally trained” it was referring to them likely having some sort of training records that could be verified. I know if they are called service dogs they are supposed to have been trained but they’re not required to be “formally” trained.
Apparently someone can train their own animal and call it a service animal. In a case like that (no formal documentation available) you’d think they’d have to demonstrate what they’ve been trained to do. There is no other way to verify if they are indeed trained service animals.
So yes, I understand service animals have been trained (if they are real) with most being formally trained but not all.
What I did not understand until more recently is that you have no way to verify them at all. At least with the ESA you can ask for some sort of verification...could well be bogus but not being able to verify it at all is ridiculous. --216.186.xxx.xx |
How many animals (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Jan 22, 2021 2:12 PM Message:
Agreed. I think we all agree with you there. The fact that we really can't verify much with Service Animals is indeed a problem. Again, I think it is more of a holdover from before the days of ESAs at all. People didn't use to fake these -- we just didn't worry about it. Unfortunately, that has changed.
- John...
--67.209.xxx.xx |
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