"NEW YORK - Clarence Hamer doesn’t expect to hang on to his house much longer.

His downstairs tenant owes him nearly $50,000 in back rent on the four-bedroom duplex in Brownsville, Brooklyn. Without those rental payments, Hamer has been unable to pay the thousands he owes in heat, hot water and property taxes. In September, after exhausting his life savings, he stopped paying the mortgage, too.

“I don’t have any corporate backing or any other type of insurance,” said Hamer, a 46-year-old landlord who works for the city of New York. “All I have is my home, and it seems apparent that I’m going to lose it.”

America’s mom-and-pop landlords, along with their tenants, have been dangling by a thread for nine months. Now, with Congress still deadlocked over the contours of a second pandemic stimulus package, they are entering a new housing abyss, a perilous period of pandemic limbo as the last of the safety nets are set to expire . . ." Reuters

Why did they let it go this long?

Seems like there is more to the story and we aren’t getting the full story.

I did a quick search of Brooklyn, NY rental listings, and a 4-bed house can run $4000 / month without utilities. Moratoriums began in March in many places. 10 months x $4000 = $48,000....and then add on utilities to boot.

One example @ $4,200 for a 4 bed townhouse.

www.corcoran.com/nyc-real-estate/for-rent/crown-heights/1162-pacific-street-2/6156067

Yes, many small time land lords everywhere are likely almost out of time, if not well past it like this poor man. Either thru intentionality or sheer incompetence, politician produced the moratoriums with zero relief for LLs. A year ago that would have been unthinkable, and it's one reason why I am very uncertain about buying any more residential rentals. This will linger in the memory longer than past Govt shut downs. Who will want to start a "non-essential" small business going forward, knowing that Govt can and will pull the rug out from under them at any time if they feel you are not worthy. The PPP was a joke. The stimulus payments to individuals were jokes. The enhanced unemployment was a joke. All designed to buy people off for a short period until they got used to doing what they were told.

I'm sickened by, but not totally surprised, that so many people sold their freedom so cheaply. Our country was founded by people who believed that there was a fate worse than death. They proved their conviction by fighting a 7.5 years war over what...REPRESENTATION! The rallying cry was "Life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of PROPERTY (in the original)." I question if we were under a foreign power today, would we have the intestinal fortitude to recreate the country we were given? Somewhat doubtful based on the blind acquiescence of so many.

To quote Mike Rowe of "Dirty Jobs" fame: "Safety is ONE priority, but not the #1 priority." Maybe because I'm former military I have a different perspective than most. In the military, safety CAN'T be the #1 priority, by definition. It is not safe to fight in a war. But the mission must be accomplished. There is a higher ideal for which we strive: liberty and defense of the home land. I was never called to make that sacrifice, but I was ready were I called to go.

I believe we are getting closer every day to a "hard reset" in the rules that govern our society. Household and Govt debts pile up, Govt prints money, and many businesses are ruined. There is no free lunch, and the piper named "Reality" will demand payment eventually. It's just a question of how soon and how bad will we let it get before it all comes undone.

It happens all the time in the history of the world. Great civilizations rise, fall, and are replaced by others. We may be living in the early stages of that time. Who knows precisely when and to what degree? My crystal ball is murky, as usual.

I think we are going to see a lot more of this.

Landlords:

1. Do NOT deplete your savings to pay mortgages, taxes utilities. Tell them you are affected by the moratorium.

2. Take as much equity out of all properties as possible NOW and move it to a safe place, if you can find one. Pass the risk on to the ones who created it.

When tenants don't have to pay and the govt supports this it is your duty to protect yourselves and your families. If you're in danger of losing your property get everything you can out of it. Then if they take it, walk away. There are other things to do and other ways to make money.

I think we are going to see a lot more of this.

Landlords:

1. Do NOT deplete your savings to pay mortgages, taxes utilities. Tell them you are affected by the moratorium.

2. Take as much equity out of all properties as possible NOW and move it to a safe place, if you can find one. Pass the risk on to the ones who created it.

When tenants don't have to pay and the govt supports this it is your duty to protect yourselves and your families. If you're in danger of losing your property get everything you can out of it. Then if they take it, walk away. There are other things to do and other ways to make money.

If they take it, physically remove everything you can as well. Water heaters, panel boxes, cabinets, windows, doors. Anything you can store and sell.

MYOB, it is you who are incorrect, unfortunately. Illegal = law broken. There is not LAW forbidding an owner to damage their own house.

The bank does not OWN a single blade of grass or one stroke of paint in a house. They simply have a lien. The Deed tells who owns the house, and in most cases it is the mortgagee and possibly one or more additional parties.

Now to be clear, I am not advocating stripped a house bare. The mortgagee signs a note promising not to cause waste, but that is a separate, civil matter. You cannot go to jail for causing waste; you can only be sued in a civil case. In this case it would be the mortgagees sense of personal honor and upholding one's word at question.

I do not think the banks were in cahoots with the Govt on this one: honestly, they have about as much to loose as anyone. At least, the small regional banks I deal with. The mega banks maybe...but there is no evidence of that to date, so until there is I cannot justify anyone stripped a house bare because "They started it."

When a property's foreclosed and sold at court steps the new owners can try to get the current person to sign a lease or file with the court to evict them. What your saying doesn't make sense if you think on it-- no one would ever move from a foreclosure... The foreclosure voids the rental contract. The rent contract isn't passed on through a foreclosure since the new owner's don't have a lease with you.

As far as stripping a place that's yours-- that's going into foreclosure-- read your loan docs-- your house is collateral for the loan-- that includes and is mentioned in the foreclosure notice all fixtures, cabinets, walls, tubs, sinks etc. etc..

Sid wen there's a mort and the home is the collateral-- it's really not yours-- your a renter with a mortgage. Why is there a party when the mort is paid off?

it's not stripping a house in foreclosure, it's a remodel. And this is all obviously hypothetical, anyways. If it gets to the point that any of us here are facing this dire of a situation, most likely all of us will be facing the same situation at that point. So if you want to talk about what's legal and what's illegal, that's going go right out the window by the time it gets to that point. Why?, Because things will be so bad that we'll basically be in a cold war with ourselves. No end in sight and desperation, things are gonna get real shaky. So anyone can stand there with pride at thos moment all they want, but there's not a man or woman on this board who wouldn't do some real nasty stuff if it came right down to it.

I have to agree with NE on that.

Besides, isn't the government braking all sorts of laws right now?

And they are not stopping the rioters and looters and even some governors supported them.

Thanks Lana I am afraid you are onto something. I guess taking what we can and running is our only option. The government is destroying many businesses and livlihoods.

NE it's not really hypothetical. When we were buying from the courthouse steps we purchased many properties where the past owners took everything. I mean everything. Your post at 11am mentioned doing the same thing. I wasn't judging just mentioning that items like showers and tubs cabinets carpeting flooring are part of the structure. Just trying to educate through our experience. Not judging.

Commercial property's basically the same. You make improvements and if you leave-- even if not foreclosed on those improvements stay.

Striping a house in foreclosure is NOT a remodel.

NE,

Is it different than the theft that occurs when you are forced to house tenants for month on end for free??

If it got so bad I was losing everything, I'd do what I could to raise money to free my kids. Including removing sellable items from property.

Folks can profess and play saint, but you'd be surprised what's you'd do.

Well it seems like blindly lashing out at a third party -- the banks -- who had nothing to do with this moratorium.

If it got so bad that I needed any dollar I could get to feed my kids (again hypothetical), it wouldn't be lashing out at the bank, it would be self preservation.

If you think you are above things like this, you're only fooling yourself.

If your hands were tied in court due to government decrees and you were on the brink of loosing everything, you'd do things like this. Anybody would.

As the restrictions increase (which they will) and become more bizarre (which the will), what are you going to do?

What are you going to do if the government says the tenants don't have to pay rent at all if affected by covid?

What are you going to do if the government says ALL tenants are free from paying rent until the stay at home orders are lifted? Or the state of emergency ends?

Put your hands in your pockets and shrug your shoulders and say "yes sir!"?

Don't lie to yourself J, you'd do something if things got bad enough. Especially if the freeloading tenants entered some type of a taunting mode with you. Haha

If memory serves me right, I think I read in the Tao De Ching that when governments become oppressive, the citizenry becomes creative. Maybe John can fact check that for me.

Tough to argue with age old philosophies and wisdom.

Maybe I'm a pollyanna but I think the current situation is going to work itself out soon. We are still in the midst of it so it looks bleak right now but most of the people on this site are pretty savvy, they will get through this.

I do feel bad for the person in the article that W posted, but I also believe there is more to this story as people pointed out and that he probably made a lot of mistakes--most likely rented to a professional tenant who wasn't screened properly.

Maybe I'm a pollyanna but I think the current situation is going to work itself out soon. We are still in the midst of it so it looks bleak right now but most of the people on this site are pretty savvy, they will get through this.

I do feel bad for the person in the article that W posted, but I also believe there is more to this story as people pointed out and that he probably made a lot of mistakes--most likely rented to a professional tenant who wasn't screened properly.

NE as I said in my first post about this. I wasn't judging and I'm certainly not of the "hOLyIER THEN THOU" group. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do. JUST beware it's not yours REALLY to take and sell.

Here's an example: you borrowed 100K for the house. Then disaster hits you and you miss 8 months of rent-- 10,000 owed the bank. So you start selling stuff pre foreclosure to make some money and stripe the place clean. Bank gets the property back and because of it's stripped down condition the bank gets 75K--- loss 25K + 10K not paid on Mort.

WHO OWES THAT difference to the bank? Can we remember the bank use's customers deposits for loans? So bottom line whos getting stolen from?

You here this at the big box stores--theft makes them charge millions and millions more for items to cover losses from theft.

J, yes the precedent is what we need to navigate about long term.

Ya well, I know most are used to rainbows and butterflies. God forbid you say anything out of the ordinary in here.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall to anyone backed into a corner over this stuff.

NE go on a cruise or something!!!!!

My observation and this is not to criticize you because I think your posts are important and invokes mind thinking .

As like most here seeing and reading about it-- we just feel helpless and the WHAT CAN WE DO about it feeling kicks in.

In my eyes you post to every comment in rebuttal. Sometimes you gotta let them go........... you make your point and move on.

I think Dodge was speaking of my post.

NE,

I'm not sure if you're post was directed at me, but I don't have a problem with your posts. But it's not going to come to the dog eat dog scenario that you are talking about. The first doses of the vaccine are being given out as we type.

J. The first doses of a vaccine that has not been adequately tested. The virus is a modified SARS and researchers tried unsuccessfully for over 17 years to develop a SARS vaccine to no avail as all the samples had the deadly side effect of inducing a cytokine storm. Most vaccines go through at least 5 years of clinical trials before release. Sometimes it takes 5 years to see the side effects. Some researchers are finding Gardacil the vaccine against Human Papilloma Virus which stimulates cervical cancer, is having delayed infertility in as much as 30% of the girls taking it. OOPS

This is not a typical vaccine. It is a novel design that is supposed to insert itself into the human genome and cause the human body to produce spike proteins just like COVID and hence stimulate the immune system. This is being released with minimal trials and essentially 100s of millions will be the test by fire. I am retired after 40 years in medicine and I have nothing but loathing for vaccine producers. Ever since the vaccine liability act in about 1991, they have had inadequate DEA oversight. Heck they own the DEA.

Interesting article - Democracy Looters by Paul Craig Roberts

"The American Republic was a democracy of male property owners. The vote was limited to male property owners, because the Founding Fathers’ intent was to protect property from government. To succeed in this, the vote had to be limited to those who had a stake in the system.

With the Lincoln Republicans’ destruction of the republic, the definition of a stake in the system changed in meaning from protecting property from government to the use of government to loot property. A one person one vote democracy has two distinct interests. Those with property vote to protect it, and those without property vote to take it away for their use. Whereas a democracy of property owners is stable, a one person one vote democracy is not. In America today people without children have to pay a tax on their property to pay for the indoctrination in public schools of other people’s children. The people paying the school tax might be obligated to a mortgage and have only minimal ownership in the property. In other words, they are not really property owners, but they are taxed as if they were.

Then there is the income tax. Few Americans, despite my decades of instruction, comprehend that an income tax means that the government has an ownership claim on your labor like the “use rights” feudal lords had on the labor of serfs and like the claim a slaveowner had on the labor of his slave. These claims were only partial claims, like an income tax, never 100 percent. If a feudal lord tried to extract more than one-third of a serf’s labor, serfs could not reproduce and revolted. Nineteenth century slaves were more productive due to better technology, so it only took about half of their work output to care for them. This allowed half of their labor to be appropriated by their owners. Many “free” Americans have experienced marginal tax rates of these magnitudes. . .