While I have certainly appreciated and taken to heart the feedback I have gotten about my current handyman situation, i am also taking steps to diversify my situation.

I sent out 250+ emails to local landlords asking for handyman recommendations. The overwhelming response was, if you find someone please let me know. One person suggested pooling together to get someone and we can "together" offer them lots of work.

I am wondering:

- how this would work.....ideas?

One other thing...I have a very valuable asset...the "real emails" of local landlords. I will not go into how I gathered all the emails, but my goal is to market/keep track of them so I can pick up deals as they exit the business. So I am NOT Ok with sharing all the emails with others. This makes organizing a bit more difficult.

As a former contractor who worked for many developers and property owners I can say landlords are among the least favored of a contactors customers. Shocking? Yes!

The reasoning is this. Almost all landlords want things done for the CHEAPEST price. You see it on a regular basis. Few value the contractors/handyman's time, experience or cost of doing business. They want instant response, 24/7/365 at discount prices. They expect that the contractor will go to the lumberyard for free, supply all materials at cost, and work for low wages. They consider handymen especially as someone one step from being homeless, a loser, someone who should be happy to accept $10-15 an hour, will take abuse from tenants, etc. They look for "retirees" looking to pick up a few bucks occasionally. (Of course, some ll's will brag about how they pay their handyman $1000 a week, but these ll's will have many rentals and cash flow to support this. It's not typical.)

Yet, they gladly and without arguing, pay mechanics $85-135 an hour to fix their cars.

Many times they want the contractor to do the work with the tenants in the way. Tenants are often angry with the landlord and take it out on the contractor, ESPECIALLY class C and D tenants. Tenants want to tell contractor what time they may work on the place and often deny entry. Tenants accuse contractor of damaging or stealing their precious things.

Also, no contractor or handyman in his right mind will enter any place where any women, children or old people are without a witness or a lawyer standing right beside him these days.

Then comes time to get paid. Many landlords, and to be fair, others as well, want to argue with the contractors or handymen about pay. Citing any number of reasons from work quality to timing to time spent on the job. They want it all for a discount. Many want to pay "later". You often have to chase the payment down.

Believe me when I say finding a good landlord to work for is JUST as hard as finding a good handyman.

Just like the landlords share info on who is a good or bad handyman, the handymen share info on who is a decent landlord.

For myself, I long ago stopped working for landlords and house flippers. As soon as I built up enough to get homes of my own, those are the only thing I will work on, except as a favor. Think about it a minute and you'll see. Why would a contractor want to work on another person's property for a discount and a hassle when they can work on their own and pocket the equity they create?

Great answer there Richard. LL's being low on a contractor's priority list is something I have suspected for many years and now you have confirmed it. Your reasons are dead-on accurate. Most LL's are cheapskates.

Richard,

As a former contractor and now a LL, you have worked both sides of the fence here.

Now as a LL, when you hire a contractor, you do treat them any different than a typical LL's does?

Let's look at contractor / handyman reasoning and expectations.

Contractors, that is, decent, reliable ones, who have decided to make their living in the trades, are expecting to be able to make enough money to support their families. These days, depending on location and family size, that's AT LEAST $50,000 per year, year after year plus inflation. That's in low priced areas. If they are in expensive areas it could be double or triple that, or more. And that's net, take home pay. Depending on family size, even more.

Now in cheap areas, lumber yards, big box stores where supplies and materials are sold at regular prices are few and far between. Usually you have to buy locally at prices often 30% higher or more. Add in truck, car for family, insurance, gas, repairs, taxes, health insurance and a dozen plus other things and you need at least 2-3 times what you want to take home, PLUS materials cost. And that's just to get by. If you want money for savings, emergencies, or to invest, even more.

Think, what does it take for a family of 4 to be comfortable?

Then factor in time spent without pay making estimates, getting and delivering materials, paperwork, collecting money, etc. A contractor is LUCKY if they get 30 hours a week of paid time. 20hours would be more like it.

Taking home even 50K for 20 billable hours a week times 50 weeks means 1000 hours a year for maybe 100K gross, or $100 PER HOUR. And that's in low cost areas. Probably twice that or more in high price areas.

And what do many landlords and flippers want to pay?

$10-15 per hour!

So what do most landlords get for $10-15 an hour? Beginners, workers with no tools, little skill, no truck, l alcoholics, drug people, misfits, criminals, scammers, generally mostly worthless workers that often don't show, want to be paid cash (making the landlord complicit in defrauding the gov't of taxes due and costing regular taxpayers more), and more.

To be fair, SOMETIMES they get an honest, decent worker. Sometimes you find a unicorn too.

Now, a good, hard working person that's decided to make the trades their way to earn money, won't bother with low priced jobs. If they just want to work and not own their own company, they usually go into the unions where they get good hourly pay, and benefits, including a pension. Those jobs are usually in higher population areas where there is more commercial work.

If they want to own their own company, they usually go to high priced areas and work on expensive homes, like over 1million in construction cost because those are the jobs that can afford to pay what they need to make. Unless, of course, they really want to live in smaller, less expensive areas or the country.

And Richard, you also have the opposite side of this as well. The start up guys who want to get going on their own. They do anything and everything for you. That is until the get enough tools and a truck that actually runs and then they stop working for you.

How quickly they forget their roots.

They'll gladly work for $15-$18 bucks an hour when it works for them, but blow you off as soon as they can start charging Granny $6,500 for a bathroom remodel.

ROY,

You know me. I'm looking for that unicorn. Otherwise I, like you, have to hold their hand, so to speak, double check everything.

Richard, just read your 2nd post, so the moral of this story is, make sure you can fall back on DIY if you can't hire stuff out or else you're _____!

'That one guy you had, the 70 yr old one, fits the profile.'

NE,

You sure got that right.

Laura MD,

You have a list of 250 landlords...

Do you have a list of handymen, subcontractors, general contractors, laborers and day workers?

If yes, how many on your list?

The point is that landlords need contractors and contractors need landlords - but not equally.

Landlords who are not DIY, don't have the time, knowledge or will to get their hands dirty NEED CONTRACTORS MORE THAN CONTRACTORS NEED THEM.

Therefore, landlords who are trying to undercut trade folks find out that nobody there is returning their calls.

Richard is correct, read his postings twice.

Richard,

If I hired top of the line contractors (the kind that I don't have to babysit) to rehab my fixer-uppers, I would end up with a house that cost $60K instead of $30K. The problem or the reality here is that newly rehabbed $60K house still sits in a $25-35K neighborhood where appreciation simply does not exist.

That MH that you helped me with is a perfect example of what I am talking about here.

I never knew why small time landlords who are not DIYs are in the mom n pop landlording business. They want to point and order, not do the heavy lifting, they want to drive expensive GERMAN cars, not beat up old F-150s, they want to be rich!

There is another way to make money in the landlord business, without the headaches of being one: buy shares in a REIT fund !

Roy, You know that every estimate has materials and labor.

Richard as a licensed & insured GC, I completely concur with your reasoning as to why most good contractors don't waste their time dealing with LLs.

I chuckle to myself when I read posting about finding quality workers able to do carpentry, electrical, plumbing & everything in between for $10.00 - $25.00 an hour. The last few high school kids that worked for me started at $15.00. Of course I also chuckle when I read of my fellow posters buying & fixing up places for $25,000.00 or less & getting rents in the $400.00 - $600.00 range.

In my area McDonalds trainees start at $15.00 or more an hour, high school age baby sitters get $15.00 - $25.00 an hour, 2/3 bedroom C grade apartments rent for $1,500 - $2,000.00 plus utilities, dumping fees start at $185.00 a ton, average W&S fees are $1,000.00 per unit per year, average property taxes are $2,000.00+ per unit per year, prepping & painting the interior of a 700 SF unit starts at $1,400.00, decent insurance is $1,00.00 a unit per year, a 1200 SF SFD fixer upper cost at least $300,000.00 and a rundown triple non deleaded decker sells for $600,000.00 minimum.

Of course I also breath a huge sigh of relief that I don't live, work & try to own rentals in California. (g)

IMO being successful in RE is a lot like being successful in housing court. You need to be prepared, know your area, know your rules & regulations, your limitations and as Brad 20,000 is fond of saying you need to know how your Judge thinks.

Fred

I have the means to pay the $60K for rehab job. However, it makes no business sense to pay $60K in a $30K neighborhood.

This is a Class C neighborhood problem.

Roy,

I do respect you a lot, you come across as intelligent and knowledgeable in what you are doing.....but, you may be wasting time in the wrong place.

Laura,

My best helper is a revolving door junkie. He's a high functioning addict (they do exist).

He could build me a house from the ground up and I wouldn't have to babysit him.

Problem is, he comes and goes. He'll be sober 6 months to a year and then he'll vanish.

When he's sober, I use him as much as possible. He doesn't steal or BS me.

When he falls off the wagon, he doesn't leave owing me anything.

He's working for me on a project now. I give him the list, drop off materials and it's done.

Laura, you may need to find an up and coming investor who wants to work/learn. That type of person could be invaluable to you.

When I first started, I worked for investors for FREE on my time off from my W2 job just to be around them. I wanted to learn from them so bad that it was worth it to me.

A big problem is paying people by the HOUR. What incentive is there to complete a job when you pay by the hour.

Pay a good guy a good price by the job and get it done

Do you want to pay a monkey $20 an hour for 4-5 hours, or do you want to pay a great guy $75-$90 to get it done in an hour?

I pay my very talented handyman $75.00 an hour. With that said i’m number one on his response list.

I pay my very talented handyman $75.00 an hour. With that said i’m number one on his response list.

Bee, that works well at times, but it doesn't work too well when you get down to punch list territory on flips. Punch lists are the basic rental turnover projects as well.

Caulk this, touch up that paint smudge, replace that 1 piece of trim, switch that one light fixture out, replace 2 blinds. Fix the closet shelf bracket, tighten the toilet flange bolts, etc.

NE said, "My best helper is a revolving door junkie. He's a high functioning addict (they do exist)."

Like Richard I'm also a General Contractor with other trade licenses who enjoyed working for "good honest landlords", which weren't that easy to find! The few stories that come to mind are:

1) Gary the realtor/landlord and investor. He got a pit-bull dog that kept on escaping over his side fence into the neighbors yard. He asked me to remove the old four foot chicken wire fence and replace it was an inexpensive 6 foot tall Chain-Link fence. I told Gary that wouldn't be a problem be he first needed to discuss the fence with his neighbor, getting permission to replace the fence and if necessary to step on his property. Gary told me he had already discussed it with the neighbor and he was okay with it.

I showed up the next day and began the work. Gary wasn't home but would return in a few hours. The neighbor came outside to see who was destroying his fence, armed with a 12 gauge shot gun. Gary never spoke a word to the neighbor about the fence or anything because they had issues with his dog.

2) An investor and college professor has the gas turned off in one of her apartment buildings. No hot water for her 6 units due to a central water heater. It was a 3 day weekend and the Gas company cashed her payment covering a late bill but would not restore the service until Tuesday. One of the tenants, an actor from Star Gate Atlantis just had a baby and needed hot water. So I drove to the Marina and turned the gas service back on.

While I was there a gas company employee was driving by and called the police. Within minutes the police was going to arrest me to stealing a utility, Gas. The owner of the property had already written two bouncing checks so the service was cut off.

Because I was a California Licensed Plumbing Contractor who was also Certified by Southern California Gas Company, I was allowed to work on the Gas Company's meter....and their side of the service. So I couldn't be arrested, but hey wanted me to turn off the gas. The Actor from Star Gate Atlantis agreed that on Tuesday if the gas bill wasn't paid, he would transfer the service into his name.

These were two expert investor landlords with millions in real estate who didn't bat an eye to put their LONG TERM Contractor UNDER THE BUS, to get on little issue solved their way, and not the right way.

Come to think of this, I have dozen's of stories about landlords trying to take a chance with my license to save themselves a buck.

BUT on the other hand, my clients consisted of:

What needs to be added.......do you want good,...fast ,...or cheap.

That's a triangle.

We can always get one, at the expense of the other two.

We can usually get two,...but definitely at the exclusion of the third.

It's usually impossible to find all three,.......maybe once or twice form the same guy,.....but then that's it..

I only speak English. That's my deficit.

I also know what I'm looking at, what I'm talking about, and what stuff is supposed to cost.

I dont live under a rock and realize that skill, experience and a tradesman who actually thinks , looks at what they're doing and pays attention , costs money,......

If I don't have to baby sit them ,....it costs money.

If they have their own proper tools to do the task and a vehicle that gets them to the job on time,......that costs money.

If it's a big fancy expensive city,....that costs money.

I don't run c,d,e properties. I don't have a carry permit. And wouldn't send someone into a situation I myself wouldn't be willing to go into.

I prefer to try and do the work at the a or b version. Which usually costs only a couple of bucks more in materials and usually only maybe a couple of minutes more labor.. Often guys don't not have the skill or eye to do a or b level work.. No matter how much you pay them,...or they ask.

If the job is basically a days work,.....or multi days,....25 to 50 an hour ,....is fair in my mind.. I recognize travel time but will not pay for it.

I expect my guys to have the basic stuff on their vehicle or in their kit.

I do a list of materials needed and process wanted for how the work is to be done. Some materials I will get and other stuff I expect the handy person to have in his shed, garage, basement or whatever.,...which I am more than willing to buy from them,..or pick up on their way in,..which I will reimburse or advance on receipts at cost, but not pay shopping time.

A good handy person will keep their own inventory list they need for """stuff"" and use this morning pick up time to get that stuff.

Jobs that require VERY SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE OR TRAINING, OR LICENSING OR EQUIPMENT / TOOLS,.......ill pay 100 hour.

ITS VERY HARD TO FIND THESE PEOPLE.

ITS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO HOLD ON TO THEM.

What needs to be added.......do you want good,...fast ,...or cheap.

That's a triangle.

We can always get one, at the expense of the other two.

We can usually get two,...but definitely at the exclusion of the third.

It's usually impossible to find all three,.......maybe once or twice form the same guy,.....but then that's it..

I only speak English. That's my deficit.

I also know what I'm looking at, what I'm talking about, and what stuff is supposed to cost.

I dont live under a rock and realize that skill, experience and a tradesman who actually thinks , looks at what they're doing and pays attention , costs money,......

If I don't have to baby sit them ,....it costs money.

If they have their own proper tools to do the task and a vehicle that gets them to the job on time,......that costs money.

If it's a big fancy expensive city,....that costs money.

I don't run c,d,e properties. I don't have a carry permit. And wouldn't send someone into a situation I myself wouldn't be willing to go into.

I prefer to try and do the work at the a or b version. Which usually costs only a couple of bucks more in materials and usually only maybe a couple of minutes more labor.. Often guys don't not have the skill or eye to do a or b level work.. No matter how much you pay them,...or they ask.

If the job is basically a days work,.....or multi days,....25 to 50 an hour ,....is fair in my mind.. I recognize travel time but will not pay for it.

I expect my guys to have the basic stuff on their vehicle or in their kit.

I do a list of materials needed and process wanted for how the work is to be done. Some materials I will get and other stuff I expect the handy person to have in his shed, garage, basement or whatever.,...which I am more than willing to buy from them,..or pick up on their way in,..which I will reimburse or advance on receipts at cost, but not pay shopping time.

A good handy person will keep their own inventory list they need for """stuff"" and use this morning pick up time to get that stuff.

Jobs that require VERY SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE OR TRAINING, OR LICENSING OR EQUIPMENT / TOOLS,.......ill pay 100 hour.

ITS VERY HARD TO FIND THESE PEOPLE.

ITS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO HOLD ON TO THEM.

ROY,

It's always a problem with the low final value houses. I agree with you. It makes little sense to sink more into a place then it's worth when you're done.

Those low value houses are really only good for the cash flow you can make them produce. Problem is, sometimes the rent you can get outruns the value cost. So $600 rent could, in theory, produce a respectable 10-12% return if you financed, say $40K. But here is where the problem is. The banks, if they are smart, won't finance more than a percentage of the value, no matter what you have into it. Even if you got 100% financing, you'd still be 10K+ in the hole. Bad, bad, bad.

So we'd, in this case, put 10K+ of our money in it and have dead equity because of low final value.

Some possible solutions:

*Go slow, use recycled materials, use low priced labor.

It takes time and time = money. Also, what if the place is stripped, ransacked, etc.

*Do the very least. Be a slumlord. (Not recommended)

*Make a deal with some local non profit agency. You get some breaks (maybe) if you agree to rent to certain groups for a certain time. In exchange, you might get grants, some help (volunteers).

* pass on this deal and look for better.

Now here's a couple others that can work.

*Buy extremely low. Donate it to Habitat or some non profit and take a deduction.? Tax savings? Maybe? Maybe not?

*Get an option on it and flip it. Some will say you're taking advantage of unsophisticated investors. Maybe. However, some investors have access to things you may not or have other reasons to purchase. (Relatives live nearby, etc). Just give full disclosure and let them assess their own risk.

One way I've used with some success on low value places is this:

Get control of the place with an option. As part of the option, get permission to clean the place out, clean up the yard, and minor repairs at my expense. Then go in and clean it out completely. Take down shelves in garage, if any. Mow lawn, trim trees, clean up yard completely. Board up broken windows. If roof leaks, patch or tarp it. Rip out bad rugs. Spray any mold/mildew. Get an airless sprayer and some old exterior paint, most any color, and paint the FRONT of the house only, not sides or back. It's now ready to flip. Cost to do this about $500 plus dump fees, if any and only takes a weekend. Just doing this can increase the price by 5K, plus it makes the place look better to a rehabber. The place sells faster and looks better. This method can make you 7-12K a week if you have a supply of low end houses around.

Fred said "but, you may be wasting time in the wrong place. Get out of these C and D areas. You can pay 60K for a rehab, why are you stuck in a 30K hood?"

Would you mind explaining to me how I am wasting my time with Class C properties? Are you suggesting that I get out of Class C and start doing Class A or B??? I am not 'stuck' in anything.

ken,

I recently started doing handyman work. I agree with Richard's assessment of most LLs. I've not yet done work for a LL, but if I get asked, I will feel them out for what quality of work they want done. There are some "practices" I just won't do. For example...

I'm not putting new flooring over an old worn out flooring material. The end result is more work and a less durable job.

If a plumbing drain pipe has a leak, I won't cut out the 1' section that's leaking and put in a piece with two rubber hoses...I will replace the entire "leg" of the system where the leak is.

I won't use Gatehouse door hardware...it's the least expensive and has a number of issues for example no ability to remove the latch plate on new doors where the latch plate is not needed...thus driving extra work in chiseling out the latch plate area.

When I finish wood for outside use, I finish 6S (all six sides) so that rot is deterred. This takes more time and thus costs more, but the end result is a durable piece of wood.

I only use quarter-turn plumbing valves that are metal, not the cheap plastic ones that break the first time you use them after being installed for 5 years. The big box stores don't carry the ones I like...I have to get from a plumbing supply store.

THe water heaters I use come from plumbing supply store and have a brass drain valve rather than the cheap plastic ones you get at Lowes/Menards. yes, they cost more.

I refuse to use those cheap blue "old work" electrical boxes with the flip out wings...they break too easily. I prefer to use the gray type with angled screws that go into the stud...or at least the industrial grade ones with the flip out ears...much better.

The above are a few examples of where I will simply not accept a job if someone wants me to do things "their way" or use those types of cheap components. It makes my work harder, results in a lower quality job, and increases my "CWPM" ratio (Cuss Words Per Minute) while doing the job.

I feel my clients out on things like this when I first meet with them...and if they're willing to let me do things at the quality level I want, then we can work something out. If they tell me "Oh I have a bunch of old parts in the garage I'm sure you can make fit", then I'm out of there faster than a nudist out of a tuxedo.

Laura,

As pres of our local LL assoc I compiled a basic list of contractors - one for each trade, based on referrals by members.

A year later the list was worthless because most were IN JAIL!!

Our "new" economy has 40% of people with less than $1000 in savings yet they don't want a part time job.

I chased done a skipper - served him in child support court! The guy could easily pay us off by delivering pizzas on the side but his thinking won't allow it

I tell young people to go to YouTube and learn how to paint. It's and easy part time job for a student and the money is great. Just find a couple of LLs and you'll always be busy.

BRAD

This was a great discussion string and has me thinking. One thing I've generally done is acquire properties with enough scale where I can afford to hire out. One of the things I've learned is that there's a huge difference between a handyman and a professional contractor and I've settled on the fact that I'm going to use the professional guys on certain projects particularly if they involve construction, plumbing and electrical. That means the places I buy have to be positioned where I can avoid the situation Roy mentioned. In my area, that means I'm not buying singles but MFH and the larger the better. My thinking is a variation of what Ken suggests; scale it where more work is available to get the professional types. I have two handymen that I cycle through; one is a 65 year old retiree while the other is a 50 year old alcoholic. Both need watching and I keep them on simple tasks like caulking, painting and maybe installation of a floor, but nothing heavy duty and nothing involving higher level skills.

This was a great discussion string and has me thinking. One thing I've generally done is acquire properties with enough scale where I can afford to hire out. One of the things I've learned is that there's a huge difference between a handyman and a professional contractor and I've settled on the fact that I'm going to use the professional guys on certain projects particularly if they involve construction, plumbing and electrical. That means the places I buy have to be positioned where I can avoid the situation Roy mentioned. In my area, that means I'm not buying singles but MFH and the larger the better. My thinking is a variation of what Ken suggests; scale it where more work is available to get the professional types. I have two handymen that I cycle through; one is a 65 year old retiree while the other is a 50 year old alcoholic. Both need watching and I keep them on simple tasks like caulking, painting and maybe installation of a floor, but nothing heavy duty and nothing involving higher level skills.

This was a great discussion string and has me thinking. One thing I've generally done is acquire properties with enough scale where I can afford to hire out. One of the things I've learned is that there's a huge difference between a handyman and a professional contractor and I've settled on the fact that I'm going to use the professional guys on certain projects particularly if they involve construction, plumbing and electrical. That means the places I buy have to be positioned where I can avoid the situation Roy mentioned. In my area, that means I'm not buying singles but MFH and the larger the better. My thinking is a variation of what Ken suggests; scale it where more work is available to get the professional types. I have two handymen that I cycle through; one is a 65 year old retiree while the other is a 50 year old alcoholic. Both need watching and I keep them on simple tasks like caulking, painting and maybe installation of a floor, but nothing heavy duty and nothing involving higher level skills.

as a licensed contractor myself and a long time owner, manager and flipper i know how much stuff costs and when my tradesmen try to gouge me they get their card shredded. i hire unlicensed guys ALL THE TIME but they have all been with me for many many years. i DO NOT chisel but also do not pay surgeons wages to guys that do not have licenses...i encourage them to get licenses, only one in 30 years has.

i have learned that nearly all trades are specialty trades and hire guys that are long in one trade so that they are not learning on my job. plumbers plumb, roofers roof, painters paint, flooring guys floor...they roll on do, the install and roll off with the least amount of delays and trips for tools and parts. no handymen for me.

my best experience has been with guys that are regularly employed by other contractors but who do side work. for example my plumber can swap out a disposal in an hour, he charges me $60-75 and swings by when he is passing by that address. the part is/will be waiting for him when he arrives. many of the things we hire out can be done any day this week or next, tradesmen like that they can add it to their loop and save a special trip. by paying fair wages and seeing to it that they get paid ASAP they know that their pricing for me might not be full retail but they take my money in good times and bad. i also have a practice of rounding up for invoices. if the invoice comes in at $90 i make it $100, if it's $185...$200. i assure you NO ONE else they work for does that and they remember. a christmas bonus is nice too. i got $50 says you and i are the only ones that grease them.

as a guy that did lots of work for LL's (roof contractor) i did learn that some are annoyingly cheap, but they are easy to sniff out. they did not get my trade skills after the first few jobs. others are simply looking to have a problem solved and pay the freight. my schtick was that no matter how many other guys made a run at the problem, THIS CALL was the last they'd need to make. toward the end of my days working for others my pricing was "situational". in so/cal the homes are sometimes dragging down $3-4,000 a month (or more) and are owned by high income persons. i do NOT work cheap for an attorney that bills out at $450/hr. i DO work cheap for an old gal keeping up one unit for her walking around money or a single gal with three kids and no pop's for her spawn.