I’ve mentioned before that my Handyman was finally retiring. 72 years old and had a serious physical issue about two years ago. He’s been wanting to retire so I let him!

WOW has it been difficult To replace him! I still have the lower end Guy: painting, clean out etc. Had to have a conversation with him, too. He was charging $40 an hour and I talked him down to 25 (because we have so much and also he can fit my projects in To his schedule).

We just bought a new one: one bedroom house; main issue is the bathroom. Had the low end guy gut it. It’s a 25 square-foot bathroom so not a big deal! 10 years ago me and Juan would’ve knocked it out!

I got on our local Facebook and Checked other people’s requests for Handyman references. Called about six of them. The usual story: the busy guys are too busy, the hungry guys are cheap and unreliable. (When I called a reference on one the guy actually told me the fellow was a thief! )

The first guy to actually respond with a money bid after I gave him the scope of work came out to be almost $90 an hour.

Two guys ghosted me after first contact (I guess they don’t need the work)

Finally found a guy through a reference from another landlord. He’s being very smart and working for almost exclusively landlords. A full bathroom is usually more than he does but he agrees it’s a small project. His base rate at $75 an hour. He comes with great references and can knock it out in about four days (which is what we assumed it would take) and each day it’s vacant rent is going, so we’re going to give him a shot.

There’s a lot of things on this project I could do but now I work full-time, and I just need to stop doing these things! I’ve blown my back out twice. I am focusing on being the manager.

If you watch This Old House, the past two years or so they are focusing on the lack of skilled labor moving forward. The old guys are retiring, the young kids didn’t learn it from their dad like past generations.

I mention all of this to you as a cautionary tale. There will come a day when you can no longer do your own work.

" lack of skilled labor moving forward"

There is no such thing as a "shortage." Simple supply and demand means that the price will eventually rise. Capitalism in a nut shell is the efficient allocation of scarce resources.

I also no longer hire *individuals*, I hire companies (small businesses). Just can't rely on one or two guys, they get sick, take vacation, have family stuff yadda yadda.

I should just sell all my real estate and go in to contracting. I can't believe what some people pay to get stuff done. It's outrageous. I know I'd be a success at it because I'm more organized than most of the people that I eventually hire for jobs anyways.

You're absolutely right that there is a deadline for us folks who DIY. When is that? Who knows. For me it could be in 35 to 40 years or I might break my neck tomorrow and that's the end of the game.

Trust me, I don't want to do this work. My intention was never to do this work long term and I know in the long run, I won't be able to do this work.

The problem I keep running into is that I can't find anyone competent or anyone affordable on a consistent basis. And that is the key part right there.

Also, the idea of simply paying more is total nonsense. That was proven to me once again this week in my business.

If you simply pay more, you're going to run into sustainability issues. Will you still be profitable? Sure I can pull a roofer offer any roof he's on right now if I double what he's going to make on that roof. He'll find some excuse to tell that homeowner why he hast to leave for a couple days and come to my job and make a miniature fortune for himself. But what's the reverse effect of that in my business? Sustainability.

I have a roof that needs to be done on one of the flip houses. I had a guy lined up for two or three weeks who has done roofs for me countless times in the past. I kept telling him that I needed a start date so I can order the dumpster and get it on site. OK OK OK he said. On Friday last week he texted me and said he will have a definite start date for me this Monday. OK great.

He didn't show or call me on Monday. My flip house partner is twice my age and twice as much of a go-getter as I am. The guy is a hustler, big time! He got Antsy and he called another roofer that we've also used multiple times in the past. This other roofer was half of the cost of the first roofer and it was still a good deal for us and a good deal for him. He was going to come yesterday And get a game plan to get his guys over there. He never showed or called.

Now for the kicker of all this. Back in May there was a huge hail storm came through my area and my development got hit hard and there are a lot of roofs that are being replaced in my development. I'd say probably 50% of them. So I called a brand new roofing company. Big shiny trucks, big fancy signs, big crew, etc.

I had seen this company in the development estimating and doing other roofs. So they are familiar with the development and they know this has been hit by the hail storm. On Tuesday this week, I confirmed with the guy, a representative of the company, that he would come to my house at 5:30 PM yesterday.

No call, no show. Guess who wasn't getting the job if he calls back?

Now this is a big company. And it's an insurance claim job, so they basically name their price on the stuff. And the guy still didn't show or call me. And he's been in this development for the past two months working on houses. So you can't say that he's too busy, because he's a big company and they have crews all over. And they're lining up jobs weeks out. And you can't say that he wouldn't be paid enough, because he would be paid more on this job than most other normal jobs due to it being an insurance claim. And you can't say go with a more professional company, because this is a professional company.

So through and through contractors are just breed. They all have the same kind of blood running through them.

But what I am learning from all of this is that I have to get myself into a position where I am money in and money out. I need to get myself to a position where I'm not dealing with the construction anymore, PERIOD. Becuse I don't have to or I don't factor that in as part of my investing. I don't think there's any other way to do that.

" Will you still be profitable? " Not every business model will be profitable (duh). But even a business model that initially is profitable will continue to be profitable in the long term. companies go out of business all the time because of changing supply and demand. I feel so silly explaining this ...

"I have a roof that needs to be done on one of the flip houses." If you have a roof that is just worn and end of life and doesn't need to be urgently fixed, you can wait out 3 or 6 months for your low low rate roofer to get it. But if you have a hole in your roof from a tree falling on it, you're going to want to balance the cost of waiting vs the loss you have due to lost rents or whatever.

I'm experiencing the same things. Prices have gone through the roof to the point places start suffering from delayed maintenance.

I'm getting too old to do the work full time and there's little reliable help, even at high prices.

The day a handyman is worth 150,000 a year and skilled journeymen make more than lawyers or doctors makes me think of other ways to make money.

Maybe I'll just go back to property mgt and just sell the jobs and supervise. Why own a place and go through the headaches to make $200-$300 a month on it when I can make $600+ in one day doing repairs and someone else. They can have the appreciation and other benefits of ownership, as well as the headaches of increasing gov't interference in their business. Increasing taxes, new lead rules, deadbeat tenant protections and more.

I have a dirt cheap electrician, very well run small biz, very good at what they do and rock bottom prices, and no deposit required.

David, no offense, my experience has taught me that that is just more blah blah blah. I do this full time. I run into these issues full time. DIY is out of necessity, because sometimes the projects can't wait for Larry, Moe and Curly to show up. Be it a roof or a turnover punch list.

Half the time you can't even get them to show up in the first place. Half the time you can't even get a price to begin with. So how do you pay more in those cases?

Then when you get a bid, they can't schedule for whatever reason. Then they schedule and don't show up for whatever reason.

Revolving door musical chairs. Sometimes I can play the game bad sometimes I refuse to and just DIY.

It's definitely not "just pay more".

I get very heated on this topic, because I find it as biggest roadblock that is probably going to keep me from moving into the 100+ rental units range. It's just the manpower to be able to handle all the maintenance. As your rental units increase, so does your maintenance. And so does you mr contractor drama.

"

Half the time you can't even get them to show up in the first place. Half the time you can't even get a price to begin with. So how do you pay more in those cases?"

Who is they? I have gotten quotes from plumbing companies , electrical companies, hvac companies, roofing companies. Not a single one has ghosted me. Not a single one has declined to do an estimate. Not a single one has failed to follow up to get my business. Not a single one has failed to schedule the work. Not a single one has failed to show up.

"

Pretty much what Richard said. My one roofer that kept delaying that I referred to earlier, was bragging to me a month or two ago about how he made $500,000 last year. Now seven or eight years ago this dude was begging me for work. Fresh out of jail and I fed him. And now I can't even get him to return my calls.

David, You are very fortunate to have them all show up to give you bids. That's unicorn territory.

NE, essentially that is what this guy found. "Management" to these jobs is the ticket. He is getting work because other guys can't be bothered to return a phone call on time. He is getting referrals because he does good, timely work.

I emailed him the scope of work and he had a broken down by category bid within 3 hours. After we spoke I asked when he thought he could start, he pulled up a schedule on his phone. "next Tuesday".

I love you all that say, "if you can't find someone you are not paying enough." Last year I had a basic (but heavy) yard cleanup. I couldn't find ANYONE to do it. Finally hired two guys from a temp agency and hired my handyman to wrangle them. My handyman was impressed with one of the guys, so HE hired the guy for his mowing crew. Handyman gets the call 'why is my yard 1/2 mowed and your mower parked on the side of my house?" Guy Worked great for 2-3 weeks, then just disappears. Completely ghosted, no call back, no explanation.

One final thing to add before I go to the flip house and climb up on the roof to see if it's something that we are going to end up doing ourselves this time or not. Would be that I can understand David paying someone whatever it takes to get a job done in an emergency situation.

If the job is an emergency, by all means get it done. But if you're out there hustling day to day, turning over properties and turning over vacant apartments and remodeling places to rent out or remodeling places to flip them and you go around paying everybody top dollar, you are going to get your freaking a$$ handed to you. That's just basic business right there.

Blue, I don't know why you're hiring temps and handymen for yard cleanup. There are tons of lawn services around here that transition to yard cleanup in the fall.

NE, I already explained , but here goes again. In most cases, I am able to plan and get multiple bids and get good pricing but have to schedule weeks out.

How I remember Robert Jay's comment was something to the effect of you're not ready for real estate until you're willing to walk over to the toilet and flush the contents of your wallet at any given time.

When I first started, I was ready to do that. I didn't have anything to lose. Now that I've been in this game for a while, I've got some sense. And I'm not going to willingly flush the contents of my wallet unnecessarily. There's a big difference between when you first start and need to take chances and need to expect the unexpected Versus after you've been in the game for a while and need to not take those chances or expect the unexpected as much anymore, because you know what's going on.

David,

Can't you understand that situations are different in different places? You seem to be located somewhere that these problems don't affect you - and GOOD for you!

However, I experience the very same problems as NE - BAD for us. It's very frustrating.

Many handymen and tradesmen no longer take pride in their workmanship. Between dealing with a tenant and getting into a rental to have a look-see at the problem, then trying to find parts when only there's a Home Depot nearby -- it gets frustrating.

My solution was to become licensed and stock the everyday parts needed to make most basic repairs. For years I transported myself around town with a fully stocked 1 ton commercial van.

Some novice clients (landlords) didn't like my hourly rate. They didn't understand that having 1 guy show up with "parts" in hand would save them money in the long run with no up and back looking for parts when still on the clock.

I remember replacing a 1/2 Horsepower garbage disposal and drain tubes for $150. The client thought this was highway robbery. So the next time they called a "larger" plumber found in the "Yellow Pages". He charged $450 to replace a similar disposal -- that's 3 times more than I charged.

Here's another perfect example. Kitchen cabinets baby! On the flip houses, and the rentals we measure out the kitchen, do a layout and order the cabinets for around two to $3000 for kitchen. When they arrive, we put them together before lunch on site. After lunch we install them. So a couple hours of our time. If I was going to hire a kitchen cabinet company every time you could easily double or triple that cost, hands-down no argument at all.

If you can snap a lid on the top of a coffee cup and use a drill to run a screw in, you can do these cabinets yourself. So why in the World would I double or triple my cost on that. The paying top dollar stuff and I know I'm beating a dead horse here, it's for emergencies only. If I hired everything out on the flip houses, there would be nothing left for me by the time I sold the property.

David, don't you think I tried that route? Lawn care companies want to mow and weed eat. They want easy work.

The reason I hired temps was because I WANTED THE WORK DONE couldn't get anyone else to even bid!

I was just explaining to someone why I DIY. I can't even get people to return calls for a quote, never mind getting them to schedule, show up and do a decent job. The people who are good at what they do, have too much work. The fly by nights are flying!

I do have some experts - sheet rock, plumbing, etc that do some work on the side from their day jobs and I wonder what I will do when they no longer do that. I know I physically can't do what I used to and it takes me longer.

Part of the problem is probably all the government regulation, the desire to sue for every little thing and the cost of taxes etc. Used to be you could hire someone for cash for the day, or the local teenager wanted some work. Getting people into the trades in another issue.

NE, kitchen cabinets are an odd example. I get semi-custom cabinets (widths and heights in increments of 3") installed for around $4000 by people who only do cabinets. The cabinets and labor are all ordered thru lowes so there's no problems with who is responsible for wrong order or who warranties what.

Valuing your time at $250 an hour and actually going out and making $250 an hour consistently over a year or two big things. Working towards goals in reality smacking you in the face are different.

I value my time at a dollar amount as well, I certainly don't value the contractors time at $250 an hour.

I have a roofer at the flip house right now checking out the roof. He finally decided to show up. This is one of those no call no show guys from yesterday. (Not the insurance claim crew). And guess what, there's a good chance this one is going to get this particular job. Because this is what we deal with.

Since the kitchen cabinets are an odd example, here's another example. The current flip house that I'm working on, I had the drywall done. It was 80 to 90 boards for $2600. The last house about 2 1/2 months ago, the same exact contractor edtimated 40 or 50 boards at $3600. I ended up just having him hang about 30 boards for $1800. So tell me how he comes up with his formulas?

Like most others, pulled it out of his.....

Lack of consistency runs rampant between contractors and even with the same contractor at different times.

How many rentals (owned) are you talking about David ?

My approach with a couple of houses was to fix EVERYTHING in the initial rehab, while I still had access to reasonably-priced contractors. New mixer valves, faucets, shut-off valves, electrical outlets, etc. Now, any tradesman with a work ethic and skills is making bank and booking weeks out. So I replace the essential stuff.

Yes, it is ridiculous. Ten years ago I paid $10 an hour. Fifteen I paid $8. Now you can't even find anyone to move a piano and refrigerator.

I had a plumber come out and fix a valve in July because it was 115 degrees and I was lazy and didn't want to deal with it. $200, but it did take him an hour or so.

Dave, there's many reasons why I would continue to use him regardless of his inconsistencies. It's the same reason that we hang onto PITA tenants versus just getting rid of them because they ruffle our feathers a little bit. Often both are hard to come by and both are a means to an end.

I hang onto this guy because nine times out of 10 I can control the negotiations and the project. So when I control the situation with him, I in turn get access to up to 12 guys. He carries the burden of dealing with them and their Worker's Compensation and all that other nonsense. So the one out of 10 times when I lose the negotiations, I just let him cry and complain and go on his way. Because I know in a few days, he'll be calling Papa looking for more work.

I also hang onto him because I've been using him for probably eight years.

It's a relationship.

The same goes with the one electrician that I use. That man is a royal pita. He will drive me up the wall nuts. But at the same time, he will do anything for me. He's invaluable, so I just have to deal with his __. And it drives me nuts. Most days I just need to pretend that were Friends and he leaves with a smile. It's just what has to happen.

The law of supply and demand has run smack dab into a bunch of youngsters who think they are too special to get their hands dirty and who have discovered that Uncle Sam will hand them, for doing absolutely nothing but whine about stress, a free house, free groceries, free health care, a free phone..... They don't have to work to feed their kids.

The $80 an hour handyman who won't show up: he is the one who set the price. I would pay it, except I can't get him to return my phone calls. It really isn't that I won't pay him enough, it's that he doesn't want to work.

Supply and demand also says that I can only get so many dollars per month for a rental, and no more than that. When it costs more to keep a house repaired than I can get for rent, then the rental goes away. I'm not doing this sucky job if all it does is take money out of my pocket and never returns any to me.

"

Supply and demand also says that I can only get so many dollars per month for a rental, and no more than that. When it costs more to keep a house repaired than I can get for rent, then the rental goes away. I'm not doing this sucky job if all it does is take money out of my pocket and never returns any to me."

JB, as the saying goes, you get what you pay for. I learned the hard way when I first started about not cutting corners when hiring contractors. I did Robert J's flush the toilet experiment more than a few times.

I'm willing to pay the lowest market rate for legit and professional contractors to work on my houses. I don't deal with crap like this:

"

I hang onto this guy because nine times out of 10 I can control the negotiations and the project. So when I control the situation with him, I in turn get access to up to 12 guys. He carries the burden of dealing with them and their Worker's Compensation and all that other nonsense. So the one out of 10 times when I lose the negotiations, I just let him cry and complain and go on his way. Because I know in a few days, he'll be calling Papa looking for more work"

"

The same goes with the one electrician that I use. That man is a royal pita. He will drive me up the wall nuts. But at the same time, he will do anything for me. He's invaluable, so I just have to deal with his __. And it drives me nuts. Most days I just need to pretend that were Friends and he leaves with a smile. It's just what has to happen."

Reading these posts gives me an idea for a retirement job:

1) Get HVAC training at local community college

2) Get applicable licenses and insurance for this state

3) Hire out as a solo handyman for landlords who are too busy, tired, out of town, etc.

If I show up as agreed, charge a fair price, do a decent job, and NEVER accept any work outside my skill set, it may work OK. Being a landlord may be an advantage here.

This is why I do everything I can myself. I just recently brush painted the outside of my house. I think it looks better than spraying and cost less money and material. There was a guy painting a house next door and he came over to tell me I should spray it. I asked him what he would charge to paint the outside of my house which he would spray in about 2 to 3 hours vs my 2 weeks(including washing all the buildings on the property). He said around 3k-4k. I keep my house well maintained and just needed freshened up. So I just made around 2k a week. That is more then I have ever made and my house looks better with my OCD brush painting.

"Now this is a big company. And it's an insurance claim job, so they basically name their price on the stuff. And the guy still didn't show or call me. And he's been in this development for the past two months working on houses. So you can't say that he's too busy, because he's a big company and they have crews all over. And they're lining up jobs weeks out. And you can't say that he wouldn't be paid enough, because he would be paid more on this job than most other normal jobs due to it being an insurance claim. And you can't say go with a more professional company, because this is a professional company"

Consider this: He's having the same problem as we are. He didn't show because one or more of his workers didn't show which threw him behind and/or created a crisis on another job. I'm not excusing the fact he didn't call.

I agree he’s having the same problem! (But a phone call would’ve smoothed That over)

Similar thing: I have a gal who’s mowing our properties. Last year she got very very behind because her two workers were slacking.

during the last downturn i reminded the guys that work for me that my generosity was due to their loyalty. i have a LOT of work and don't chisel guys on their rates as long as they are fair and do the job. after things got heated up here in california i noticed some were jacking me on stuff and looking for $50 hours w/o a license. i made sure they heard me shred their card as i explained that when they were going out for $20 an hour in 2007 i was still paying more. some understood...others are too stupid and will be back at which time i will explain they were replaced.