Lets assume a friend of yours was in a pinch and needed $200.00. You provided the cash without any obligation to be paid back. This friend of yours had started a new job and promised to pay you back when they got their first paycheck. Well, that time has long come and gone and this 'friend' has made no effort in paying you back. Matter of fact, this 'friend', who seems to have that typical Class C mentality about managing money, is now asking you for more money.

The actual money here is not important. It is the fact that some one you consider a friend is now trying to use you like a personal piggy bank.

Would you tell this person that the bank is now closed and I really don't want you as a friend anymore?

I wouldn't be so blunt about it-- I'd probably be vague and smile encouragingly and tell them I hope it all works out okay if they were hinting, and merely say, "No, I'm good," if they asked directly for a handout. And then either way, I'd helpfully switch the conversation to their new job and their new income and analyze their habits and what they can do on their end.

But a lot would depend on the calibre of friend they were. I would do the above for someone who was more of an "acquaintance" or "someone I eat lunch with."

I think this is a bit like Robert J's saying, that as a LL you have to be willing to flush $1000 cash down the toilet to get the upside of the rentals.

What do you get out of that friendship? Is it more than $200? Is it more than however much you value your feelings being hurt as a personal piggy bank?

How much of a friend is this? And why do they need the money?

Probably if I were in a snarky mood, I would bring up the previous "loan" and their promise to pay it back. Providing it doesn't look like their are extenuating circumstances that they could not pay back. (house burned, kids sick, etc) I would then offer to loan them a small amount, with all the proper paperwork that included the previous amount.

Now if you really loaned it with no expectation of getting it back, which proved true, the question to ask is are you willing to do that again. I would probably not. For a close family member, I might purchase the needed item for them, if it were truly needed.

Roy the first "loan" its friend to friend so forget it.

Deanna,

I guess I am trying to figure who my friends are and who is not. Where I come from, friends don't treat other friends this way. If this person had just offered to pay me a meager $10.00 of what was borrowed, I would not have even made this post.

This is one reason I never make "loans" to friends or family, because as the Good Book says, "The borrower is a slave to the lender...." A loan between even the nicest of people introduces an opbligation and an expectation that can sour quickly if one or both parties doesn't follow thru.

Now there's that awkwardness because you both understood it was a loan. However, now this friend has let that obligation sliiiiiide and sees you as a wealth person who can "afford" to give him money. You on the other hand, are upset that he not only "forgot" about the money that was owed, but has the nerve to ask for more. He's treating you like an ATM.

This is, of course, all purely hypothetical... (*wink)

When family or friends ask for money, I give it as a gift with no strings attached. If they want a loan, I tell them I don't do loans (Dave Ramsey guy here...hello!) for the very reasons stated above. I value the relationship too much and don't want to ruin it. They're going to have to go to a bank for a loan. But from me, I just give.

ROY - Your definition of a friend is a lot different than mine. I would loan my last dollar to a TRUE friend. I think I read somewhere, in a life time you may have only one TRUE friend, that is some one who would give you money with out question - who would stop what he is doing to help you, all with out question.

You have identified an acquaintance of yours who needs a few dollars. Will you ever get it back. NO. Did you do any thing to change his behavior?? Do you think he will try to bum a dollar from some one else? Does it bother you that he took advantage of your goodness. YES it does. We have all been there.

Ask him to work the debt off.

You did your part - but I suspect your days of being his piggy bank or over.

PG and others,

Tricky. What was the money for? Makes a difference to me.

I'm more likely to smile blankly at an acquaintance who's imposing, and then steer the conversation into uncomfortable channels so that they abandon it. And I'm more likely to give money to an actual friend-friend with no expectation of getting it back, and promptly forget all about it. Except all my friend-friends wouldn't do that to me, so I've never had the opportunity to test it in the wild. :)

But DH has a legal mind and is much more organized and direct.

When he loaned money to a friend with poor money habits who was in danger of foreclosure, he took some firearms as security. There was a paper and everything-- $x was borrowed, $x had to be paid back by date, or else the firearms were forfeited. Everyone signed it, it was spelled out, and so on.

The firearms were redeemeed about a year ahead of schedule. He almost lost his house, but there was no way he was walking away from those firearms.

DH had a client who owed him a few $k but wasn't paying. DH had him do the usual put-it-in-writing-with-signatures thing and bring the title to his truck. He had to pay off a reasonable amount of $x every payday, until the full sum was paid off, and if he didn't, the tow truck was going to show up. The first week, the guy said, "Here's your money. It's $15 short." And DH is like, "That's not what we agreed." "But it's only $15!" And DH gives him the special look and reminds him, "Yes... it's only $15." And the guy realizes, "I'm not going to lose my truck for $15." And he magically came up with the extra money, and has paid regularly ever since. I think he has about 2 weeks left before he gets his title back.

So-- if you want to do charity close to home, it's good to remember that you'll ultimately be judged on your open-handed generosity and love, not on their gratitude or whether or not they wasted the opportunity. Do your thing, and be happy that you had the opportunity, and then let it go.

WMH,

I am blunt so I wouldn't beat around the bush.

I simply handle these situations as follows:

"My friend here is not a "he" but a "she"."

Not trying to upset the ladies here but women have a looser definition of money oblations than men as they treat it as common place for men to pay things for them - clothes, lunch, bills, cars, etc.

Ok, now that we understand the parameters I'd say it boils down to the extent of the relationship. If it's just a business friendship (uh, I mean not "that" kind of "business") then I think it's time to just be nice and say, "Well you know you still haven't paid me back from the last time."

@WMH - Not that old but I've been around long enough to know there are certain perks to being female and not paying for stuff seems to be one of them.

What percentage of the time do you whip out your wallet when you and DH are eating out?

Latest was she says the carpet upstairs in our house needs to be cleaned. Nobody goes up there. Didn't matter, next thing I know the carpet cleaners are doing their thing and I am paying the bill.

I was with WMH on David's post but she posted first.

@Nicole - I did not say women as a whole are gold diggers. I just said women (on average) have a somewhat looser notion of their responsibility when it comes to money as more often than not someone else is paying.

Going back to the original post, If I loaned $200 to 10 male friends and 10 female friends, odds are higher that more of the men would pay me back than the ladies.

I was trying to keep the M/F gender thing out of this discussion but too late for that now. I am also holding back more information on my relationship with this particular woman. Does it really make a difference though?

Whether you loan money to a man or a woman, shouldn't the repayment obligations be the same?

My first wife made a lot more than I did and I was still the one whipping out the wallet to pay for dinner.

@Nicole - I'll ask you the same thing I asked WMH, how many times when you and your significant other go out for dinner do you pay for it? 5%, 50%, 95%

Like I said, there is a different standard for women with regard to money.

Depends on what it's for, how good a friend he is, and how loose he is with his other money. Did he spend his money on wasteful things and now needs your money to pay rent? If he was sacrificing and managing his money to make ends meet and still needed your help then I'd consider. You being his safety net without having to make any personal inconvenience or sacrifice is quite another.

"Would you tell this person that the bank is now closed and I really don't want you as a friend anymore?"

Yikes David! It completely depends on the woman. I pay for everything. Not only for my husband but often when taking out friends. I let them pay sometimes because they'd feel bad if they didn't.

And to Roy....I can't fathom not paying back a loan. Especially to someone I cared about who trusted me. I have never had a single debt I did not pay. Due to having this personality I would be offended if someone borrowed from me and didn't pay me back. That is using someone pure and simple and I don't consider someone who would do that a friend of any kind.

Have I made loans to people? Yes but always in writing and backed by collateral. The one person I outright gave $2500 to (they didn't ask, I offered because I knew of their need) has paid me back all but $300 and intends to keep paying. When I asked why he was paying me back when I said there was no need he said he just "couldn't not pay me back" never would want me to think he took advantage of me, and couldn't otherwise live with himself if he didn't. Plus he was so very grateful. And he knows he can count on me and wanted me to be able to count on him. This was even someone I didn't know that well, just wanted to help and didn't ask to be repaid.

@Lisa - You would be the exception. It's not a "Yikes" it is just how the world works.

Roy why did you feel that you had to leave out the fact the borrower was female? Is it because being female generates a higher level of sympathy for misfortune or a problem than a male?

I would try to treat it case by case. if your friend who has tried and worked hard, still can't make ends meet, then it is charitable to give out some to help..

If it is just lack of proper money management, then either time to sit down talk like friends or move on.. No need to dwell on it..

David, 50% because we combine our funds 100%. So every time one of us pays the other is contributing 50%.

My son & DIL keep separate accounts and they trade off "Your Turn to Pay!" So 50% for them too.

Your comments that women don't pay their bills and men do is pretty ridiculous overall.

YEA, wow, David. I can't believe you think that. It isn't the way the world works, at least not the big world. Maybe your little world. You need to look at your relationships closer if you are the one always paying.

This is probably the wrong forum to make that comment. Considering all the women that comment here, that manage and take care of, pay the expenses on and work in their properties. I doubt they are loose on their obligations or look for sympathy.

That said, any person that does not try to pay me back and asks for more money, is not a friend I wish to continue with, and I would not give or loan them any more.

The David conversation is more interesting than the two hundred bucks.

Because the loot was for move-in expenses it had low chances of a timely return. This you knew. The fact that she doesn't bring it up is not good.

I'm the reverse. I tend to thank people too much, to the point where they may feel uncomfortable. However, they at least know I'm grateful.

I would question the person about the loan. "Hey, How come you have not mentioned paying me back?" (Be ready for the hidden response nestled in between the lines)

"What? Didn't you just hear what I was saying about my tire going flat and needing to chance the dentist's appointment till Tuesday?" It was your role to assume the aforementioned details would automatically indefinitely postpone previous plans. Besides, in your case you lent the money out of obligation.

I NEVER lend money to a “friend”.

You said you had no expectation of getting it back, so just let it go but tell them you won’t give any more.

If they were a really good friend, I’d just GIVE them the money with no strings attached...at least the first time.

From what you describe, this person would no longer be my friend.

The women on this forum are exceptional and entrepreneurs. They are not the norm. The same can be said for the men.

I love to learn from all.

@smokekowna - you said "Here is what is interesting about David's thesis. It has been delivered to a bunch of female landlords. The very same words could of been spoken elsewhere and gone completely unchallenged. Fascinating"

I think the real issue here is whether or not your friends or associates should be valued in terms of money. If you make a personal no-obligation loan to anyone, and that person makes no effort in repaying the money, does that make you think any less of that person?

Want a friend,

treat 'em like you would like to be treated.

Wanna lose a friend,

Back to Roys original question:

Haha Charlie! I'm generous because I'm at a point where I can afford to be and you can't take it with you. It took me some time to feel comfortable with spending because saving has always been my strong point.

But I think the reactions to the original question are personality based. If I lent someone money who failed to pay me back (if that was the agreement) I'd be done with them, period. Because it's just something I could never fathom doing to someone else. It may be irrational on my part but I view it as a huge betrayal of trust.

David, your world is too small. I don't know a single woman - regardless of profession - who *expects* a man to pay for them. That's crazy talk, it really is! You are living in the distant past or a bad marriage.

I do know irresponsible people who never seem to have the money they need in an emergency - I have one woman in mind in particular here - but it's obviously a "daddy's girl" thing: her father always pays for her emergencies - and she is FIFTY now. That's HIS fault in my opinion. Bad parenting.

Well said WMH! I can't count the number of women I've rented to with fairly deadbeat male partners.

Many times I've helped friends in need out with money, services or both. Most of the time the people who got themselves into a mess will disappoint your by not paying you back as agreed. I've lost more friends by lending them money.

A friend's car was going to get repossessed. It was a classic that the borrowed against to pay some bills. After I paid off his car note and he knew his car was safe, he cut back on his work hours and took it easy.

Another two lady friends had blown their engines on their cars. I purchased used motors with around 30,000 miles on them. Got them installed and they were back in business within days. They were going to buy a new car and put themselves in debt for $500 a month in payments. Instead, I got them back on the road for less than $1000 each. That's two car payments. Did they say thank you? Yes. But they took forever to make partial payments.