An Entitled Tenant - ESA
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An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) May 14, 2019 6:58 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by J [FL]) May 14, 2019 7:02 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Paulio [PA]) May 14, 2019 7:02 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by NE [PA]) May 14, 2019 7:08 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by RB [MI]) May 14, 2019 8:52 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Robert J [CA]) May 15, 2019 1:18 AM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) May 15, 2019 8:13 AM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by S i d [MO]) May 15, 2019 8:29 AM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) May 15, 2019 8:45 AM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by LisaFL [FL]) May 15, 2019 8:53 AM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by J [FL]) May 15, 2019 8:57 AM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) May 15, 2019 11:02 AM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) May 15, 2019 11:04 AM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) May 15, 2019 11:51 AM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) May 15, 2019 12:04 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) May 15, 2019 1:50 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) May 15, 2019 2:54 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) May 15, 2019 4:44 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) May 15, 2019 4:59 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) May 15, 2019 5:03 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) May 15, 2019 8:46 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) May 15, 2019 10:22 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Robert J [CA]) May 16, 2019 5:10 PM
       An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) May 17, 2019 8:42 AM

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An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 6:58 PM
Message:

Let me start by saying that when I sign leases we review the key points verbally.

Anyway, I learn that a tenant has been bringing a small dog into her unit (no dogs allowed) and has a boyfriend staying with her. As we have a good relationship I e-mailed her, rather than post a notice for compliance. She responded saying that had fire damage and he was staying with her for a while. (She never mentioned this before). She also said that the dog was a shared dog, and that he would be staying with her for 3-4 days per week.

She then attached a fake ESA certificate. I then sent her a request for reasonable accommodation, to be signed by her doctor. She was outraged. She said that it required information that violated her privacy. (How about those lease violations)? Anyway, I told her it was required. As I suspected she backed down and said the dog wouldn't be staying with her.

What got me was her sense of entitlement and her feigned ignorance of the lease. If she had said, "Hey Jeff, my BF and I have a small dog and I would like for him to stay with me for a few days a week. Would that be a problem? " I probably would have said yes.

But the way she approached it, as though it was her absolute right, rubbed me the wrong way. She really thought her fake ESA certificate ($70!) would do the trick.

Also, an ESA is full-time. No timeshares! :)

--76.120.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by J [FL]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 7:02 PM
Message:

So is that like joint custody? Of the ESA? LOL.

Didn't you post about the BF before? It seems to me that if you want to post a cure or quit the BF angle would be safer target than the ESA. He has no right to be there. The dog could technically be an ESA, under the law.

--72.188.xxx.xxx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Paulio [PA]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 7:02 PM
Message:

Yet another example of how you can do 99 nice things for a tenant, but the one time you say “no” you are a slumlord scum of the earth. --50.107.xxx.xxx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by NE [PA]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 7:08 PM
Message:

Paulio, you're still doing nice things for tenants? :) --50.32.xxx.xxx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by RB [MI]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 8:52 PM
Message:

Next. --184.53.x.xxx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Robert J [CA]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 1:18 AM
Message:

I have a no-smoking apartment property and a tenant is now an avid weed smoker. Simce Pot is legal in California, the tenant things it's okay to subject other tenants to their "drug" habit. Like ESA fakes, they want their dog to bark, poop and bite just about anyone because they think they are entitled.

--47.156.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 8:13 AM
Message:

So, I can't help but be curious. How do you know her ESA documentation was "fake"? Not all online ones are -- most, in fact, actually use a real doctor or other healthcare professional and do qualify as proper documentation. So, how do you know hers was fake? Especially if it was a paid for one (most of the paid for ones are, actually, legit). It's unfortunate, but true.

Second, I am curious what your accomodation request includes? Since she said it violates her privacy. I'm curious what you asked her for.

Finally, just to note it, there is no requirement that an ESA be "full time" and "no time-shares." Again, annoying and likely "fake" from our standpoint, sure, but from a LEGAL standpoint, there is no such requirement so doing anything based on that could get you into trouble.

- John...

--96.40.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 8:29 AM
Message:

I agree with Jeff that this was MOST LIKELY an "after the fact" ESA....

But I also agree with John that I have never seen rules that says ESA are part-time only.

One of the great ironies of the ESA craze is how tenants have them in their homes. A person's home is usually whether they are the most safe, secure and able to control their environment and customize it to their taste. You would think that the ESA would be more necessary when they are out in the real world which is challenging, chaotic, and making demands on them.... *shrugs

I'm glad it worked out for you, Jeff, but I think J's advice is good: go for the slam dunk lease violation that you know for a FACT is not permitted. There is no such thing as an ESA boyfriend....yet. ;-) --173.20.xxx.xxx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 8:45 AM
Message:

John, it was a downloadable ESA certificate. ESA certificates have no legal standing. There is no official registry. What they need is an ESA letter written by a licensed therapist. An ESA letter is the only legal document that is required for emotional support animals in Colorado.

I was calling her bluff.

The document that I sent her is from my lawyer's web site. It's three pages and winds up with a check box saying that the tenant has a disability. That's it. No personal information. My lawyer said that an ESA isn't a part-time thing.

Thanks, Sid. I am sure that someone is working on the ESA boyfriend/girlfriend angle. --76.120.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 8:53 AM
Message:

John if you think most online ESA letter websites are legitimate then you are part of the problem. Go ahead and pick the top three, fill out their multiple choice questionnaire and answer each one as if you are the most stable healthy person ever with no issues! Guess what? You qualify for an ESA.

How do I know? I've done it.

Several states have started allowing landlords to require documentation from a provider licensed in their state and with whom the applicant has an on going relationship. This is specifically to stop those buying bogus online letters. You are the only person I've ever heard who claims most are legitimate which makes me question your agenda. --216.186.xxx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by J [FL]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 8:57 AM
Message:

"There is no such thing as an ESA boyfriend....yet. ;-)"

LOL. --72.188.xxx.xxx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 11:02 AM
Message:

Jeff: What did the downloadable certificate say? Just that it was a registered ESA? Then I agree with you. But if it was a download certificate that was a note from a healthcare professional stating the need for the animal, then that is allowed -- even if downloaded. That's the point I was trying to make there. It wasn't clear what they gave you exactly. A downloaded "certificate" from a healthcare professional would have been acceptable.

And I still think your lawyer is wrong. The guidelines have been clear that the animal need not be with the person at all times. Therefore, "part time" is allowable.

Other than that, I think you're right.

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 11:04 AM
Message:

LisaFL: You're missing the point completely. The reality is that most of those online places DO generate a "legit" document from a healthcare professional. One that legally meets the requirements of the federal law.

The fact that you can fill out a form and get one for anyone I agree is a huge problem -- but that does not make it LEGALLY INVALID. You filled out a form and were given the legally required documentation. Therefore, it WAS a "legitimate" document like I said.

Yes, a FEW STATES have added additional clarification that you can require someone that is local or licensed in a certain way or have been meeting with the person for a certain amount of time. But that is NOT what is required for the federal law. If you are in one of those states, then GREAT! But that doesn't change the fact that, in most states, most of those online sites -- suck as they may -- still give out legally legitimate documentation (unfortunately).

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 11:51 AM
Message:

John, that is what the lawyer told me. If you can cite a source that says that that's not true I would love to see it.

An ESA letter is written by a licensed mental health professional who believes you would benefit from an emotional support animal.

Online certificates are worthless. --76.120.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 12:04 PM
Message:

Jeff: Can you site a source that says that it IS true? If the FHAA does not specify that the animal has to be with the person at all times, then it doesn't. Period. I can't prove a negative to you. The law does not require it -- therefore, it is not required. If your lawyer says that the animal DOES have to be with the person all the time, then have them cite the part of the FHAA that states that. (Hint: It doesn't exist.) In any case, not worth the argument as that's a really rare situation.

And, again, I think you're missing my point about the certificates. An Online/Downloadable Certificate that is written by a licensed health professional is NOT worthless and IS valid by federal law in most states.

THAT is what most of these online certificate mills are doing. They have contracted "health professionals" that sign off on these letters.

Therefore, the point is that you can't just ignore or deny all online-certificate based applicants. If they have a letter from a healthcare professional -- even if they got it online -- it is still valid.

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 1:50 PM
Message:

John, I am going by what my lawyer (landlord law firm) said. I am not asking for proof of a negative. I was looking for language that described that further. If the lawyer is wrong, fine. I don't really care.

My lawyer said I only need the request for reasonable accommodation and to ignore the certificate.

Who knows, maybe there are mills that offer certificates signed off on by health professionals. It is not a certificate required by law, but an ESA letter signed by a health professional. One of the rules states that the person is under the provider's care. That is key.

--76.120.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 2:54 PM
Message:

But there's the rub. There is no rule that states that they have to be "under the provider's care" for any more than a one-time interview (which can be online).

That WOULD be "key" -- if it existed. It doesn't. Or, better said, it isn't defined in any such way by law -- so it would be very easy for some online mill to say that they were under that "healthcare professionals" care for the 5 minutes that they filled out the survey.

Again, that is why those online sites exist and WORK -- because they generate paperwork that meets the federal legal requirements. That's the problem, of course.

As far as your lawyer's advice to "ignore the certificate" -- well, you never answered my question above when I asked what the certificate actually said. If it says that a healthcare provider says that they are disabled and gives reason for the animal, then that IS the letter you're talking about. That's my point here -- that online certificate might BE the letter that you're requiring. You never told us what it said when you (or your lawyer) decided that you could "ignore it."

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 4:44 PM
Message:

"Emotional Support Animal Registration of America."

"This certificate confirms that (name of dog) has been registered with the ESARA by (name of tenant) as an emotional support animal."

Then there is a bunch of nonsense that makes it appear legal.

I have little doubt that the mills that you have mentioned exist, but I would challenge any certificates that came from them. --76.120.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 4:59 PM
Message:

This is part of a long newsletter article on this subject:

Certificates from websites stating that a dog is a

“certified service animal” or an “assistive animal” can safely be ignored. Under fair housing laws, the animal’s

status is irrelevant. Does the tenant have a disability

related need for a companion animal? This is the issue.

Specifically, the tenant must be disabled, as defined by

fair housing laws, and the companion animal must be

necessary to lessen the impact of the tenant’s disability.

Emotional Support Animal (“ESA”) letters sold

by websites should never be ignored. ESA letters are

often written by LPCs (Licensed Professional Counselors).

Fair housing laws generally require that the

person providing documentation, regarding the tenant’s disability, (the opinion that the tenant has a mental

impairment that substantially limits a major life activity) has to be a person “who is in a position to know”

about the tenant’s disability. Given the law and how ESA

companies operate, we ask ESA companies to answer some questions. Why are they in a position to know about

the tenant’s disability? What are their opinions

based on? How does

psychological testing

determine if somebody

is disabled as defined

by fair housing laws? --76.120.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 5:03 PM
Message:

Sorry about the bad formatting above. I also have this from the firm:

According to one website, the entire process takes from several days to two weeks. Additionally, some ESA companies also state that their opinions are also based upon a review of the tenant’s medical history or records. Based on the process, the short timeframe, the lack of an on going relationship, and the ESA company’s overall lack of familiarity with the tenant, we have challenged ESA letters for clients on numerous grounds. --76.120.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 8:46 PM
Message:

I agree that anything that just certifies the animal is bogus and can be ignored.

From what I'm seeing lately though, most of the "just pay us and get your ESA" places are going well beyond that now. They are contracting "healthcare professionals" (note that they do not have to be MDs or GPs) -- and having them sign appropriate letters.

THOSE letters cannot just be ignored simply because they came from an online source.

It sounds like yours was the former, so I agree with you about ignoring it. Was just curious what it said -- thank you for the details.

- John...

--96.40.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Jeff [CO]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 10:22 PM
Message:

Thanks for the clarification. If I had a way to send the article from my lawyer, I would. If that's the way those are headed, it's not good. You're right about not ignoring them out of hand. My lawyers apparently know how to challenge those. --76.120.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by Robert J [CA]) Posted on: May 16, 2019 5:10 PM
Message:

Found my tenants doctor's note was a scam. The doctor provided a "paper mill" for a fee, never meeting the patient or pet. Wasn't afraid to deny the "pet". --47.156.xx.xx




An Entitled Tenant - ESA (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 17, 2019 8:42 AM
Message:

Robert J: WHY weren't you afraid to deny exactly?

Regardless of the doctor's poor morals, what made the note a "scam" from a LEGAL standpoint? As far as the law is concerned, your applicant had a letter from a healthcare professional stating their need for the animal. That is all that is required by law. The fact that that doctor provides LOTS of them for a fee -- and that they hadn't met the patent or pet in person -- does not change that your applicant had met the legal requirement of the federal law.

On a side note, even GOOD doctors providing these letters for long-term patients that are actually under their care usually never meet the pet itself. I see lots of people going "has the doctor even MET the pet??" when that doesn't matter at all. Most doctors -- real, legit doctors -- would still never meet the pet. (Heck, by law, they wouldn't even need to allow the ESA into the hospital or doctor's office!) :)

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx



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