visiting emotional suppor
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visiting emotional suppor (by Tracy [VA]) May 11, 2019 11:14 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by LisaFL [FL]) May 11, 2019 11:21 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Tracy [VA]) May 11, 2019 11:34 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) May 12, 2019 1:30 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) May 12, 2019 1:35 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JB [OR]) May 12, 2019 2:02 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) May 12, 2019 10:06 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Deanna [TX]) May 12, 2019 4:20 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Vee [OH]) May 12, 2019 6:31 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) May 12, 2019 7:09 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Tracy [VA]) May 12, 2019 7:29 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JB [OR]) May 12, 2019 10:26 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by LisaFL [FL]) May 13, 2019 7:56 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) May 13, 2019 6:15 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Tracy [VA]) May 13, 2019 8:40 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Steve Stackman [OH]) May 13, 2019 10:11 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) May 14, 2019 4:37 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) May 14, 2019 4:48 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) May 14, 2019 11:35 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) May 14, 2019 1:42 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) May 14, 2019 4:05 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) May 14, 2019 4:48 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) May 14, 2019 5:21 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) May 15, 2019 8:20 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) May 16, 2019 6:34 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) May 17, 2019 8:38 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) May 17, 2019 9:03 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) May 17, 2019 9:07 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) May 17, 2019 11:52 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Danno [IL]) May 23, 2019 10:52 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Danno [IL]) May 23, 2019 11:05 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Danno [IL]) May 23, 2019 11:07 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Danno [IL]) May 23, 2019 11:09 AM
       visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) May 23, 2019 3:46 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by Danno [IL]) May 23, 2019 5:17 PM
       visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) May 24, 2019 8:25 AM

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visiting emotional suppor (by Tracy [VA]) Posted on: May 11, 2019 11:14 PM
Message:

My tenant has an adult child with an emotional support animal. I have not verified but, let's assume it is legitimate. She says that the animal is allowed to be there when her daughter visits. Does anyone know if this is correct? Is a landlord required to allow an animal to visit if the animal's owner, who is visiting a tenant, uses it as an emotional support animal?

--76.92.xx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: May 11, 2019 11:21 PM
Message:

No. You are only required to allow your tenant to have a bonefide emotional support animal. Emotional support animals only apply to where the individual who owns it resides.

You can most certainly can restrict other people's animals being brought onto your property. Honestly, I'd get rid of a tenant with such an entitlement attitude. --216.186.xxx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by Tracy [VA]) Posted on: May 11, 2019 11:34 PM
Message:

Thank you for your quick response. I lurk here a lot but, this is the first time I have posted. Lots of great information here. --76.92.xx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: May 12, 2019 1:30 AM
Message:

Tracy,

Welcome!

ESAs are annoying.

Consider this: you can be legally correct all day long but the FairHousing police would LOVE to drag you into court and put you on the front page of the newspaper just to make you a warning example for other LLs, even if they lose.

Unless itís a problem animal I saw ďDonít poke the sleeping bear,Ē

BRAD --73.102.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: May 12, 2019 1:35 AM
Message:

**say** not saw

BRAD --73.102.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by JB [OR]) Posted on: May 12, 2019 2:02 AM
Message:

No way. You don't owe them anything. Those with the ESA are not your tenants. If they want to push it send them packing if necessary. --24.20.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: May 12, 2019 10:06 AM
Message:

I suppose it would depend on the animal, how often they visited, and the tenant for me. If it was a small well behaved animal with a responsible owner that didnít visit that often and a good tenant it wouldnít bother me all that much. With that said, if the tenant approached me with a ďyou have toĒ attitude, it was a large, poorly behaved dog, and they visited all the time, thatís a horse of a different color. As others have said, ESA laws only apply to the residence of the person requiring an ESA. --71.248.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by Deanna [TX]) Posted on: May 12, 2019 4:20 PM
Message:

"Oh, that's terrible. I'm so sorry your daughter isn't able to visit you without the support of her ESA. Have you considered group therapy, to work through your issues?"

;) --96.46.xxx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by Vee [OH]) Posted on: May 12, 2019 6:31 PM
Message:

Leave the animal out in the car, as a side note all animal damages go to tenant - they can collect from the friend who brought the animal onto your property. --76.188.xxx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 12, 2019 7:09 PM
Message:

Tracy: Be very careful -- you're getting lots of "answers" that seem to based on opinion or WISHES as opposed to anyone giving anything related to the law.

LisaFL (and everyone else who relied with bad legal advice): Do you have any legal source backing up what you just stated?

Several interpretations of the law would very much disagree with you and say that the animal is allowed to visit:

www.latimes.com/la-xpm-2013-apr-19-la-fi-rent-20130421-story.html

fairhousing.foxrothschild.com/2018/03/articles/disability/assistance-animals-and-guests-here-are-some-general-guidelines/

Basically, the FHAA specifies that people "associated" with a resident are also covered under the law.

You can still verify like you would an applicant/tenant, but, yes, you do have to allow them.

The amount of misinformation (that would likely lead to doing something that violates federal law) is a bit scary... Come on, people, let's stop answering LEGAL ADVICE questions like this with quick, absolute "answers" without at least stating that you don't know that for certain or are just assuming or something! Answering as if it is fact/law when it isn't is going to get other landlords into real trouble.

- John...

--96.40.xx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by Tracy [VA]) Posted on: May 12, 2019 7:29 PM
Message:

Thank you everyone for the great responses. BTW it is a pit bull. I have not seen it but, within 3 hours of the tenant's daughter visiting with it I received a text from another tenant asking if they could get a pet. Yes Brad it is annoying. --76.92.xx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by JB [OR]) Posted on: May 12, 2019 10:26 PM
Message:

Of course it's a pit bull. I haven't met a tenant in the last three years with a pit bull that didn't claim it was an ESA. Surprise, surprise! --24.20.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by LisaFL [FL]) Posted on: May 13, 2019 7:56 AM
Message:

Unfortunately John (MI) info is more accurate.

So pretty much a landlord has pretty much no control over tenant's allowing other people to bring any unvented animal to the residence. Imagine having to screen every tenant's guest who claims to have an ESA - most of which are bogus.

Looks like it's time to develop more lease clauses. As if we don't carry enough risk and liability. And people wonder why rental housing is so expensive. --216.186.xxx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: May 13, 2019 6:15 PM
Message:

Tracey, what type of rental is this, is it owner an occupied multi-family home? --71.248.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by Tracy [VA]) Posted on: May 13, 2019 8:40 PM
Message:

It's a four plex not owner occupied. --76.92.xx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by Steve Stackman [OH]) Posted on: May 13, 2019 10:11 PM
Message:

I am attending the Landlord convention in Cleveland next week and really hope to get some details on this. I have had a couple of people apply to rent my units that stated they had ESA but the applicants did not meet other qualification criteria so I dodged a bullet. --76.181.xx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 4:37 AM
Message:

Well let me revise my answer, as John pointed out, I really donít know 100% for ALL LLís. For some LLís, no, you donít have to. Certain LLís are exempt from the FHA, that includes me. My answer remains unchanged FOR ME. The examples John referenced if I remember correctly are news articleís, so they are that persons opinion of the law (not saying they are wrong) 1 of them clearly refers to ďservice animalsĒ not ESAís. As far as actually cases brought against a LL by HUD I have only read 1. And itís very convoluted, the case is U.S. v. DeAngeli, in that instance there was a consent decree entered. HUD does not specifically cover the issue within its notice to housing providers. All references to having to allow a guestís ESA are based on violating the tenants right to enjoy their dwelling, and some are suggesting that by not allowing a guest that has an ESA to visit your tenant, you are violating your tenants rights. Others are saying that the LL is not violating the tenants rights, that the LL is not preventing the tenant from having visitors with ESAís, just preventing them from having the ESA. ESAís are not legally required to be allowed in public places, I.E. businesses, work, hotels, shopping malls, restaurants, etc, etc. So I just donít know the correct answer, I think HUD needs to clarify and specifically address how FHA laws apply to tenants that have guests with ESAís. --71.248.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 4:48 AM
Message:

Tracey, in the mean time, provided you donít want to test the legal waters of HUD, you CAN request all legal ESA documentation, insist the dog remains leashed, itís ďbusinessĒ is picked up after, and you can meet and evaluate the dog. ESAís are a case by case process, you donít have to allow an animal that is aggressive. Most likely this grown child doesnít have the proper ESA letter or an ESA letter at all, and after you request the documentation that will be the end of the dog visiting. In my experience most people with ESAís (not all) are lying just so they can take the ESA where ever they want or have a pet. --71.248.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 11:35 AM
Message:

JKJ: You kinda back-pedaled there to say it was still the right answer "for you", but then went on to say it was for a completely different reason than before! In your original answer, you said things like "it depends on the animal" (which it doesn't) and then concluded with "ESA laws only apply to the residence of the person requiring an ESA" -- which is also wrong. That statement was wrong REGARDLESS of if you are in the small group exempt from the law.

And I'd maintain that you continue to be incorrect in your new statements. For example, you state "All references to having to allow a guestís ESA are based on violating the tenants right to enjoy their dwelling." That is simply not true. As I said above, the references to allowing a guest's ESA are based on text from the FHAA which states that it is illegal to discriminate against someone with a handicap that is "ASSOCIATED" with the renter/tenant.

It isn't about rights to enjoy their dwelling. It is about specific text within the law about "associated" people with disabilities.

Also, the fact that ESAs are not required to be in public places has nothing to do with the FHAA. That distinction comes because of the difference between the ADA and the FHAA. It would be a bad idea to try to use the ADA to defend yourself as a LL -- because it isn't the law that applies to (residential) LLs.

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 1:42 PM
Message:

John, the reason I ďback pedaledĒ was I realized that for most LLís my response was not accurate after reading your post. Secondly, I am exempt from both federal and state FHA laws, I own a 2 family which I live in. Not sure how you think I said itís the right answer for me but for a different reason, my reasons for my answer remain the same, I realized my reasons do not apply to everyone, which admittedly I wrongly believe before. So, as I said in my original answer,if it were me, it would depend on the animal and the tenant. I say this because I donít have to allow any. . Why I changed my answer was because I realized that I donít know 100% if a LL doesnít has to allow a guestís ESA. The only actual case law I could find pertaining to a guestís ESA was ďU.S. v. DeAngeliĒ and it was a convoluted case. Ultimately there was consent decree entered. Iof you could please post the case law where a landlord had charges brought against them and lost. Also please show me where it specifically says in HUDís guidelines ďspecificallyĒ that a LL is violating a law by not allowing the ESA of a visitor. I ask only because Iíve read lawyers explain it both ways, that because of the lack of guidelines the law is open to interpretation. Iím not talking about ďservice animalsĒ Iím talking, as is the person that posted the question, about ESAís, specifically if they have to allow the ESA of a guest. Which is why I also suggested in the second part of my response that Tracey can ask for an ESA letter, insist it remains leased, itís waste is picked up, and to meet the dog, because you are not required to allow an aggressive animal. --174.199.xx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 4:05 PM
Message:

Again, not to make a big deal of it, but your "response was not accurate" for ALL LLs, not just you. Yes, you have an exemption. But that had little to do with your response. Your response said that "ESA laws only apply to the residence of the person requiring an ESA" -- which, again, is wrong for ALL LLs -- regardless of if you have an exemption or not. That is all I was saying. That was wrong either way.

Whether or not a LL has had charges brought against them doesn't change the law. I get that some of this is open to interpretation, yes, but most interpretations agree that a disabled person "associated" with the tenant counts (because that is exactly what the law says -- without much to "interpret") there.

When I did my searching, I could not find ANY sources (besides individual LLs like who responded here with no actually reading of the law itself) saying that visiting ESAs were NOT allowed. I could only find sources stating that they WERE covered under the FHAA's "associated" clauses.

If you have LAWYERS that you have read, as you said, who say that visiting ESAs do not have to be considered, then by all means please link me to where you read it -- as I'd love to see their interpretation of the law and how it does not include "associated" people with disabilities.

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 4:48 PM
Message:

John, I have already addressed the fact that my first comment was not accurate to all LLís., that I am not 100% sure, and that I was mistaken in my post. That is why I revised my post. My point was that HUD and the FHA does not specifically address allowing a guestís ESA. In my research, (albeit online) I have read legal opinions about this topic.(that better? I didnít write ďI have lawyers that I readĒ by the way, I wrote ďI have read lawyers explain it both waysĒ Iím pretty sure you knew what I meant though) I have also read stories in news articles. I have read opinions that suggest they must be allowed, and Iíve read opinions that suggest they do not need to be allowed. I personally have found no court brief that shows a judge found that a LL that denied a guestís ESA violates FHA laws. I realize that a lack of court decision doesnít change the law. My point was just that there is the law, and how judges interpret the law. I would like to see a judicial interpretation of the law. I say this because I agree with the opinion it is open to interpretation. I will look again and find the articles I have read that are of the opinion that a LL is not violating any laws by denying a guestís ESA and post them. But I still remain UNSURE on the topic. I personally have not read any factual proof that says a LL has to allow a guest ESA, that doesnít mean if I wasnít exempt Iíd want to test the waters, because I also have not personally read any factual proof that a LL doesnít have to. --174.199.xx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: May 14, 2019 5:21 PM
Message:

John, when I say ďmy point isĒ Iím referring to my revisions, not my original post. --174.192.xx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 15, 2019 8:20 AM
Message:

You keep saying: "I have already addressed the fact that my first comment was not accurate to all LLís." My point is that your first comment was not accurate to ANY LLs. Again, exempt or not, your statement that "ESA laws only apply to the residence of the person requiring an ESA" is wrong for all LLs.

You keep repeating as if it was right for you because you are exempt. You being exempt doesn't make that statement accurate -- even for you. ESA laws do not only apply just to the residence of the person requiring an ESA. The law is clear on that, at least.

In any case, yes, I knew what you meant about legal opinions that said that they did not need to be accommodated. I simply asked you to link to a few of them so that I could read them. In my research, I haven't really found any legal opinion saying that they do not need to be accommodated. You said that you've found multiple of them online -- all I did was ask you to show us some. I'm curious to read such a legal opinion. So, when you do find them again, please share them.

- John...

--96.40.xx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: May 16, 2019 6:34 PM
Message:

John, I realize my post was wrong for all LLís which is why I reposted and said I was mistaken. When I say it doesnít apply to all LLís Iím referring to exempt LLís. Surely your not telling me that a legally exempt LL must allow an guestís ESA? Also I cannot find the articles I read, I read them late 1 evening after randomly looking up info. But if I remember correctly (I may be wrong) I read that the common thought is that it would be a violation of FHA laws due to the fact ďa LL cannot discriminate against a tenant, or a person associated with a tenant, the other argument is that it violates a tenants right to have ďfull use and enjoyment of the unitĒ. What I read was that this person (I believe it was an attorney) disagreed with that. His opinion was that as far as the ďfull use and enjoymentĒ argument, the LL is not denying them visitors, their denying the visitors animal. So the tenant is not being denied full use and enjoyment. As far as the discrimination violation, because HUD and FHA are not specifically addressing guests ESAís then the discrimination would be based on the ADA guidelines. The ADA recognizes ďservice animalsĒ as an animal that performs a specific task, I.E. help guide the blind, turning on lights, picking up things, sensing seizures, sensing low blood sugar etc. The ADA does not recognize the act of providing sheer comfort as a service animal. So therefore, as we know ďservice animalsĒ cannot be denied in public places, but ESAís CAN be legally denied access to public places I.E. restaurants, businesses, work, etc. therefore a LL is not legally required to allow a guestís ESA because itís not discrimination based on the ADAís guidelines. If a LL said to a tenant your guests ďservice animalĒ is not allowed, that would be discrimination based on ADA guidelines and in turn a violation of the FHA. Now as far as a tenants ESA, HUD and the FHA specifically address the issue and as we know, LLís must not discriminate against a tenant with a legal ESA letter. Before anyone jumps down my throat, although I happen to agree with this opinion, I would not want to be the first 1 to test it and try to prove it right. Also, these were not my opinions, it was an opinion I read, and happen to think it sounds plausible. I just could not find it again to link it here, so please, if you read something similar Iím not trying to claim it as my writing. Or if I misunderstood what I read, please let me know what I misinterpreted. Also, Iím not trying to argue with anyone, I am just sharing a point of view on this that I thought many LLís would find interesting. --71.248.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 17, 2019 8:38 AM
Message:

Sorry, I missed where you said that you were mistaken for everyone. It seemed like you kept saying that you were still correct for exempt LLs and I simply disagreed with that (when referring to the "ESA laws only apply to the residence of the person requiring an ESA" statement). So, as long as we agree that statement is incorrect for everyone, then I think we're on the same page.

In any case, it's too bad you can't find any of those references that say otherwise now. I don't know of any and couldn't find any in a search -- so I think it would be fairly rare for a lawyer to say that. And, again, the issue with GUESTS isn't the "full use and enjoyment" part that might apply to the tenant in other circumstances. It is the fact that the FHAA specifically uses the word "associated" when referring to other parties covered by the law. Any disabled person that is "associated" with a tenant is covered under the FHAA. So, I don't think a lawyer's disagreement with the "full use and enjoyment" part really applies -- because the law is specific about "associated" parties to the tenant.

Also, you seem to feel that FHA does not "specifically address guests ESAs". I guess I disagree with that. It looks like they were absolutely thinking about it and wrote it into the law when they added the "associated" parties clause.

Don't get me wrong -- lots of the FHAA is vague and poorly defined, IMO. But THIS part is actually pretty specific. It very specifically states that discrimination against "associated" disabled parties of the tenant/applicant is illegal.

So, I disagree with the idea of "this isn't specifically addressed by the FHAA, so we default to the ADA that doesn't include ESAs." That simply isn't accurate from what I can find. It is addressed by the FHAA -- and we don't have to consider the ADA at all here.

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: May 17, 2019 9:03 AM
Message:

John, First and foremost let me say I wanna thank you for being respectful and keeping it a friendly dialogue of sorts. Now, itís entirely possible I misinterpreted what I read, and as I said I thought it may have been an attorney. But your explanation makes sense to me. The only thing I wonder is, where is the line between a guest and a visitor. I realize it states ďassociatedĒ with the tenant, but could it be argued that thereís a difference between say your cousin coming to visit for 3 days and requires an ESA, as opposed to your friend who is coming over to say hello for an hour? Again Iím not trying to prove you wrong, this whole ESA thing just peaks my curiosity and this is a good format to see what other like minded individuals think. --174.192.x.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: May 17, 2019 9:07 AM
Message:

1 thing Iíll add that I think everyone can agree on, the way the guidelines are worded is ripe for abuse from those faking ESAís. --174.192.x.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 17, 2019 11:52 AM
Message:

Yeah, I'm curious about the guest/visitor thing too. I mean, from how the law is written, I would think they'd easily argue that a disabled visitor with an ESA is "associated" with the tenant -- and, therefore, they could stop by with their dog for an hour or two any time -- even if it is a no-pet property.

Sucky, but that is how I interpret the intent of the law, unfortunately.

And, yes, I think we do all agree that it is very ripe for abuse (and is being actively abused by many).

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by Danno [IL]) Posted on: May 23, 2019 10:52 AM
Message:

First, I also want to thank both JKJ and John for their intriguing dialogue on the subject, for this subject is all new to me. I need a clarification from JKJ (and I welcome John, along with anyone else, to join in) ... JKJ, in an earlier response to Tracy, you stated that [landlords] "... CAN request all legal ESA documentation", along with several other requirements. Can you please specify what all documentation (legal or otherwise) should be demanded? --174.221.xxx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by Danno [IL]) Posted on: May 23, 2019 11:05 AM
Message:

Illinois right now is considering a bill that would make it illegal to deny a rental applicant or to reject any real estate transaction with individuals who happen to have any arrest record. --174.221.xxx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by Danno [IL]) Posted on: May 23, 2019 11:07 AM
Message:

Sorry, that last comment was meant to be posted on a discussion page. My screen jumped, and it landed in here. --174.221.xxx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by Danno [IL]) Posted on: May 23, 2019 11:09 AM
Message:

... on a different discussion page ... --174.221.xxx.xx




visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 23, 2019 3:46 PM
Message:

Danno: For an Emotional Support Animal, you can basically ask for written documentation from a "healthcare professional" that they have a disability of some sort -- and that the animal allows them to have the same opportunity to use and enjoy the housing. You may not ask what the disability IS -- just confirm that they are considered disabled by law.

I go by something like this:

"The applicant must provide written verification that they have a disability and that the accommodation is necessary to give the tenant equal opportunity to use and enjoy the community. The applicant should obtain a signed letter on professional letterhead from his or her own healthcare or mental health provider and that provider must answering the following questions: 1) Is the person disabled as defined by the Fair Housing laws? and 2) In the healthcare providerís professional opinion, does the person need the requested use of the animal to have the same opportunity as a non-disabled person to use and enjoy the housing community?"

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by Danno [IL]) Posted on: May 23, 2019 5:17 PM
Message:

John, thank you for that information. With doing my own research on this, I had been finding bits and pieces here and there, but not getting the entire picture as you had just stated. Unfortunately, the HUD website doesn't really spell out these guidelines in clear and concise English - to the standard reader's detriment ... --174.221.xx.xxx




visiting emotional suppor (by John... [MI]) Posted on: May 24, 2019 8:25 AM
Message:

Indeed -- it is a "clear as mud" situation. Like most government stuff. :)

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx



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