Reasonable Accomodations
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Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Apr 18, 2019 12:40 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 1:04 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by John... [MI]) Apr 18, 2019 1:55 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Apr 18, 2019 2:14 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 2:36 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Apr 18, 2019 2:44 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 2:46 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 4:49 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 4:51 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by Rodney [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 5:53 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by plenty [MO]) Apr 18, 2019 5:54 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by DJ [VA]) Apr 18, 2019 6:35 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 6:40 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by Still Learning [NH]) Apr 18, 2019 6:59 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by Txlord [TX]) Apr 18, 2019 8:24 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by CGB [MI]) Apr 18, 2019 9:08 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by JB [OR]) Apr 18, 2019 9:41 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by TA [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 10:27 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by JB [OR]) Apr 18, 2019 10:48 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by David [MI]) Apr 19, 2019 4:39 AM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Apr 19, 2019 5:21 AM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by Oregonwoodsmoke [ID]) Apr 19, 2019 6:46 AM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Apr 19, 2019 8:25 AM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by CJ [MO]) Apr 19, 2019 9:14 AM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by John... [MI]) Apr 19, 2019 9:48 AM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by John... [MI]) Apr 19, 2019 9:49 AM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by Don I [MO]) Apr 19, 2019 10:54 AM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by CJ [MO]) Apr 19, 2019 11:17 AM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by Lana [IN]) Apr 19, 2019 11:52 AM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Apr 19, 2019 12:21 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by Oregonwoodsmoke [ID]) Apr 19, 2019 1:30 PM
       Reasonable Accomodations (by JKJ [MA]) Apr 20, 2019 4:54 AM

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Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 12:40 PM
Message:

Another ESA story, but this is an interesting take (found on Quora Digest:)

Q: My landlord is still trying to charge me pet fees even though my dogs are ESA, Iíve filed a complaint with HUD but what else can I do?

A: Landlords must make reasonable accommodations for the handicapped. That does not mean they have to do anything and everything asked of them. For instance, if they have a 3 story house thatís divided into 4 apartments, and one is on the 3rd floor, they are not required to put in an elevator or to massively renovate the building so a handicapped person can move into that apartment.

Laws vary from state to state in landlord tenant law and in terms of how ESAs are dealt with.

There are dozens of websites that will provide certificates saying an animal is an ESA. With that in mind, itís rather hard to convince someone an animal is a legitimate ESA and not just a favorite pet that someone wants to get authority to take everywhere with them.

Even if you have full proof, including documentation from a qualified mental health professional, in your state, that may not mean that you get a free pass on keeping an animal in your apartment without paying pet fees.

Look at points #1 and #4. The landlord is asked to make reasonable accommodations. That doesnít mean he has to spend or lose money making accommodations. There are reasons for pet fees. Pets damage properties. Dogs scratch even well trained dogs sometimes make messes. Cats us a litter box, but the area around it often gets messed up. Tanked pets, like fish, or lizards and snakes, are usually not an issue, but some reptile owners often leave the reptiles out of tanks and thereís no way of potty training them.

The reason for pet fees is to cover the additional wear and tear a pet causes in an apartment or house. Expecting to keep an animal in an apartment or rental house without paying a fee is asking a landlord to allow extra wear and tear to an apartment without anything to cover that. It is asking them to lose money.

What youíre asking for is not reasonable accommodations. Youíre being allowed to keep your ESA in the apartment (or house) with you. What youíre asking for is to be able to do that at the expense of the property owner. Itís very likely, in many states, he could have just rejected your application without giving you a reason. Instead he is allowing you to have your pet. Asking for a pet fee is not screwing you over, itís asking for coverage for the extra wear a pet causes during your tenancy. "

--50.82.xxx.xx




Reasonable Accomodations (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 1:04 PM
Message:

What are points #1 and #4 ( and #1 and #3)?

State laws vary from state to state, but federal law is the same across the country. Many state laws merely repeat federal requirements, making both state and federal charges possible.

We don't know enough about this case to know if the landlord is violating fair housing laws, federal or (his) state, but it may be true that LL is in violation. It may not be so simple.

--47.139.xx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 1:55 PM
Message:

Remember that that is just "some guy's" answer on Quora where someone asked a question. It has no legal information at all. It says that he is a "Former rental manager and property owner." Doesn't mean much.

In my opinion, he's wrong on most of it. He seems to be trying to argue that a LL can still charge a fee for an ESA because it MIGHT cause "additional wear and tear." That is incorrect and illegal.

Yes, you can charge for any damage and additional wear and tear cause by the tenant or the ESA -- but you can't charge an animal fee or extra S/D up front because you THINK it MIGHT happen.

--24.180.xxx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 2:14 PM
Message:

Hey John, can you point me to the actual law that says we can't charge for reasonable accommodations of an ESA?

I honestly don't worry about this because I have just jacked my rents up and if you have a pet, an ESA or a parrot who sings lullabyes to you at night, I don't care.

But I like to read the law. --50.82.xxx.xx




Reasonable Accomodations (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 2:36 PM
Message:

Whatever the state, You could probably be pointed to a law that says WHAT you can deduct from SD.

LL can charge for THE COST OF reasonable accommodation, but he cannot discriminate against a tenant who asks for reasonable accommodation. The accommodation is from the policy of not allowing pets, or charging for them. LL cannot discriminate by charging for a pet which is an ESA if he does not charge for tenants without pets. Thats discrimination.

--47.139.xx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 2:44 PM
Message:

AH, GOOD POINT Moshe. I get what you are saying now. --50.82.xxx.xx




Reasonable Accomodations (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 2:46 PM
Message:

Well Moshe, you're single handedly changing the tide of charging/not charging for ESA's here in this thread.

For almost a decade that I've been on this site, the rule/rule of thumb is that you CAN NOT charge for ESA's. Now all of a sudden, we CAN charge as long as we are charging other folks with pets the same? --174.201.x.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 4:49 PM
Message:

The point is, that you cannot discriminate against tenants with ESAs.

If you read more, then that wouldn't be such a surprise.

--47.139.xx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 4:51 PM
Message:

But you didn't answer my question. Are you charging pet rent on tenants with ESA's? Or are you finding ways to work around renting to them to begin with?

--174.201.x.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by Rodney [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 5:53 PM
Message:

Moshe, according to your logic, 'LL cannot discriminate by charging for a pet which is an ESA if he does not charge for tenants without pets. Thats discrimination.'

If a LL charged all tenants a pet fee, even the tenants without pets, then no discrimination occurs? --72.187.xx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 5:54 PM
Message:

It doesn't seem the rely to the question is totally correct. But it seems it would stop a honest tenant with fake papers to reconsider what they are doing. The question says they already reported the LL for discrimination when actually the first wrong was the fake papers. However most states there may not be consequences for that. I'm confused by the MrLL replies. I'm still learning but I'm not StillLearning who post on here. Interesting post. I will qualify the people first. Posturing as "in needed" ... shame on them. Its 2019. Stop it. --99.203.xx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by DJ [VA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 6:35 PM
Message:

Now you've got me thinking in comparison to how you allow someone with a wheelchair to install a ramp, but they pay for it. --68.10.xxx.x




Reasonable Accomodations (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 6:40 PM
Message:

I'm interested to see how this thread plays out. --174.201.x.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by Still Learning [NH]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 6:59 PM
Message:

FHEO Notice: FHEO-2013-01 Issued: April 25, 2013

For example, while housing providers may require applicants or residents to pay a pet deposit, they may not require applicants and residents to pay a deposit for an assistance animal.į

--24.61.xxx.xx




Reasonable Accomodations (by Txlord [TX]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 8:24 PM
Message:

Charge animal fee/deposit --72.180.xx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by CGB [MI]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 9:08 PM
Message:

I am just thinking outloud so just bear with me. Please note, I am not debating a law stating that an ESA is a medical device but just pondering. If a tenant requires a ramp to enter a rental property, it is a reasonable accommodation to permit them to build a ramp at their expense. No one expects the landlord to pay for the ramp. So why would it not be a reasonable accommodation to permit an ESA in a no pet unit, also at the Tenants expense? Meaning, animal fees. --67.149.xxx.xx




Reasonable Accomodations (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 9:41 PM
Message:

Perhaps the most varying and strangest post I've ever read.

Maybe just charge everyone extra for a B.S. fee to compensate LLs for all the fakers.

Seriously, I love the logic behind the original argument from the response first posted. It makes much more sense to be able to charge for ESAs with the stipulation that the only real benefit may be having to allow those LLs that do not allow animals to have to accommodate for them. But still requiring fees/and or added animal rent makes much more sense than not. --24.20.xxx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by TA [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 10:27 PM
Message:

FHEO Notice: FHEO-2013-01 Issued: April 25, 2013 also has the below.

"A request for a reasonable accommodation may not be unreasonably denied, or conditioned on payment of a fee or deposit or other terms and conditions applied to applicants or residents with pets, "

You can still charge tenants with an ESA for damage above wear and tear at move out, or charge for damages/repairs you see during an inspection. But a pet fee/deposit or pet rent is not allowed.

--73.15.xx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 10:48 PM
Message:

From what I found at Service Dog Central:

In order to avoid abuse of the system, landlords are generally permitted to require a letter from the tenant's doctor explaining the tenant is disabled by mental illness and how the emotional support animal is expected to mitigate this disability.

Under federal law, you do not have to permit emotional support animals for everyone with a mental illness, only those who are disabled and have a mental illness. The mental illness must be in some way directly related to the disability. This might vary with state laws, so check with your attorney. According to the NIMH, 26.2% of adults in the U.S. suffer from a mental illness in any given year, but only 6% are severely mentally ill. So more than three quarters of those with a diagnosed mental illness are not disabled by that illness and would not qualify to use a service animal even if they would benefit from one.

If the tenant has not yet gotten an emotional support animal, the landlord may be entitled to place restrictions on the size and breed of the animal. The landlord may be entitled to require the animal be spayed or neutered.

The landlord is not generally permitted to require a deposit for the emotional support animal, though there have been some cases where it has been permitted depending on local court rulings.

The landlord may be able to have an emotional support animal removed if it poses a direct threat to others or disrupts the ability of other tenants to enjoy their dwelling. This is not a loophole to get rid of emotional support animals because someone doesn't like living in a complex with a pet next door. It is meant to give a legal remedy if the emotional support animal proves to be a nuisance, say by barking incessantly through the night so that other tenants cannot sleep peacefully in their own homes, or by the tenant refusing to clean up after their pet, posing a health risk to others. --24.20.xxx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by David [MI]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 4:39 AM
Message:

"If a LL charged all tenants a pet fee, even the tenants without pets, then no discrimination occurs?"

That's not a pet fee then. That's just increasing the amount of rent. --50.4.xxx.x




Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 5:21 AM
Message:

That's what I thought too David!

--50.82.xxx.xx




Reasonable Accomodations (by Oregonwoodsmoke [ID]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 6:46 AM
Message:

{{{{{{{........it is a reasonable accommodation to permit them to build a ramp at their expense........So why would it not be a reasonable accommodation to permit an ESA in a no pet unit, also at the Tenants expense? Meaning, animal fees ......}}}}}}}

Your parallel is that the tenant must buy his own ESA,. The landlord doesn't have to buy it for him.

You don't get to charge a fee every month to keep the ramp on the property.

Nice try, but don't try to argue it in court. --98.146.xxx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 8:25 AM
Message:

The flip side of that, Oregon, is that the ramp can't cause damage to the place. I think it COULD be argued that the ESA could.

I'M not going to argue it, but SOMEONE could. ;) --50.82.xxx.xx




Reasonable Accomodations (by CJ [MO]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 9:14 AM
Message:

If they want to have ESA benifit (got restricted breed, not paying for animal deposit and animal fee), they should provide document to convince the landlord it is true ESA, not just certification that anyone can buy from online. Is that illegal for landlord to request? --97.91.xxx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 9:48 AM
Message:

Again, you can't do things based on the fact that you MIGHT incur additional wear and tear if someone has an ESA. That's the main point here. You don't get to go "You can't build a ramp because it MIGHT cause damaged to my place in a couple of years." Similarly, you can't go "You can't have an ESA because it MIGHT cause damaged to my place in a couple of years."

You also can't go "I'm going to charge you an extra S/D because your RAMP/ESA/WHEELCHAIR MIGHT cause damage over the coming years."

Yes, someone COULD argue it. They would not win. :)

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by John... [MI]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 9:49 AM
Message:

CJ: I feel like we've answered that question for you a dozen times already. You never listen to us, so why do you keep asking the same questions?

The law does NOT specify who the provider can be. If the online person is a "healthcare professional" that qualifies under the law, then you have to accept the online documentation. There is nothing magical that can be done to prove it is a "true ESA."

- John...

--24.180.xxx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by Don I [MO]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 10:54 AM
Message:

I like the comparison of the ramp. When you allow the tenant to install the ramp (at their expense), you are also allowed to require they remove the ramp when they move out. So can you require they add enough to the SD to ensure you have enough to cover said removal?

If yes, how would that be different from requiring a pet deposit (not a monthly fee)? As long as the animal doesn't cause damage, thr tenang gets the money back. --174.234.xxx.xx




Reasonable Accomodations (by CJ [MO]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 11:17 AM
Message:

The needs for ramp is easy to see and hard to fake. Problem with ESA is easy for prospect to have fake ESA. That is why it is problems for landord and discussed here all the time. --97.91.xxx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by Lana [IN]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 11:52 AM
Message:

A Reasonable Accommodation is something a landlord can do at minimal cost to himself at the request of the tenant, such as placing signage on the parking spot closest to the building that designate a spot for the disabled person, allowing an ESA, etc.

A Reasonable Modification is a structural change that landlord has to allow the tenant to do at tenant's expense such as lowered countertops or a wheelchair ramp. You can require the tenant to remove the modification at their expense at move out if the modification is internal. You may not require removal for an external modification such as a ramp.

These residential rules are spelled out by HUD at its website and are governed by the Fair Housing Act.

Businesses have a higher standard and have to comply with the ADA for both employees and clients. I would imagine apartment complexes must be built in compliance with the ADA. --216.23.xxx.xx




Reasonable Accomodations (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 12:21 PM
Message:

Then there is this:

Federal Law: Fair Housing Act Exemptions

Single-family homes rented without the use of a real estate agent or advertising are exempt from the federal Fair Housing Act as long as the private landlord/owner doesn't own more than three homes at the time.

Apartments of four units or less are also exempt if the owner lives in one of the units. However, even if this multifamily exemption applies to you, your rental advertising must still comply with the Act.

Other exemptions include the rental of a single room in a home, qualified senior housing, and housing operated by religious or private organizations, if certain requirements are met. --50.82.xxx.xx




Reasonable Accomodations (by Oregonwoodsmoke [ID]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 1:30 PM
Message:

{{{{{{.......If the online person is a "healthcare professional" that qualifies under the law......}}}}}

Worse than that. The "healthcare professional" doesn't actually have to be a certified physician, or anyone with any sort of medical professional license. It can be a therapist, or a counselor, a life coach, an herbalist, or the person's minister that they discuss their fears with. Heck, probably a yoga instructor could write the ESA prescription.

The whole concept of the ESA law is really wonky and useless. --98.146.xxx.xxx




Reasonable Accomodations (by JKJ [MA]) Posted on: Apr 20, 2019 4:54 AM
Message:

Iím just reading all this and glad Iím exempt, ESAís are giving me a headache. I think itís clear from the posts that these laws are interpreted different ways, and obviously some tenants abuse/try to abuse the ESA laws. Ugh, I gotta take an aspirin. --71.248.xxx.xxx



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