NY Landlords (by Ken [NY]) Apr 17, 2019 12:04 PM|
NY Landlords (by WMH [NC]) Apr 17, 2019 12:47 PM
NY Landlords (by S i d [MO]) Apr 17, 2019 12:49 PM
NY Landlords (by Still Learning [NH]) Apr 17, 2019 1:29 PM
NY Landlords (by OPM [OR]) Apr 17, 2019 1:37 PM
NY Landlords (by Ken [NY]) Apr 17, 2019 2:53 PM
NY Landlords (by Robert,OntarioCanada [ON]) Apr 17, 2019 3:44 PM
NY Landlords (by small potatoes [NY]) Apr 17, 2019 8:35 PM
NY Landlords (by DJ [VA]) Apr 17, 2019 9:56 PM
NY Landlords (by fred [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 4:08 AM
NY Landlords (by Ken [NY]) Apr 18, 2019 4:29 AM
NY Landlords (by Vee [OH]) Apr 18, 2019 9:34 AM
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 9:44 AM
NY Landlords (by Lana [IN]) Apr 18, 2019 9:45 AM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 9:50 AM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 9:52 AM
NY Landlords (by Ken [NY]) Apr 18, 2019 10:06 AM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 10:10 AM
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 10:25 AM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 10:40 AM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 10:42 AM
NY Landlords (by Ken [NY]) Apr 18, 2019 10:46 AM
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 10:59 AM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 11:11 AM
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 11:42 AM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 12:13 PM
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 12:35 PM
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 2:05 PM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 2:31 PM
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 2:44 PM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 2:54 PM
NY Landlords (by Taz [CT]) Apr 18, 2019 4:02 PM
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 4:55 PM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 18, 2019 5:07 PM
NY Landlords (by MikeA [TX]) Apr 18, 2019 6:45 PM
NY Landlords (by TAZ [CT]) Apr 18, 2019 7:13 PM
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 18, 2019 7:53 PM
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Apr 19, 2019 4:45 AM
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Apr 19, 2019 8:53 AM
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NY Landlords (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Apr 17, 2019 12:04 PM
Governor Cuomo signed into law on 4-12-19 lawful source of income non discrimination act of 2019,effective immediately landlords cant discriminate against a lawful source of income meaning section 8,welfare etc.lawful source of income is now a protected class --72.231.xxx.xxx
NY Landlords (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Apr 17, 2019 12:47 PM
I don't understand how the government can force a person to sign a contract. I just don't. P --50.82.xxx.xx
NY Landlords (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Apr 17, 2019 12:49 PM
Sorry to hear that. Our freedoms are being eroded daily by folks who use their power to buy votes.
Regardless, it's still your business to find good tenants. So screen in other ways available to you. We both know that folks with limited and/or ungarnisheable incomes often have other issues that (so far) remain legitimate screening tools. Double down and SCREEN, SCREEN, SCREEN.
And ZERO TOLERANCE when they are late or paying partial because you know that if you have to accept ungarnisheable income there's no way you're getting paid.
If all else fails, move to Missouri. We still value freedom in flyover country. I'll have a cold beer waitin' for ya! --173.20.xxx.xxx
NY Landlords (by Still Learning [NH]) Posted on: Apr 17, 2019 1:29 PM
Feels like we are moving quickly toward socialism in this country. --107.77.xx.xxx
NY Landlords (by OPM [OR]) Posted on: Apr 17, 2019 1:37 PM
Ken thanks for the post
As a comparative Oregon has had this for some time
A LL can't refuse a application based on source, howver all the other features are in play, screen and compare.. they may or may not be the best app --162.247.xx.xx
NY Landlords (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Apr 17, 2019 2:53 PM
Sid,we will be leaving this state eventually but not even sure where to but I have parents that I have to be here to take care of for the time being.This current governor has said we will be the most progressive state in the nation so I was expecting it and it seems to be a race to the left with this bozo. --72.231.xxx.xxx
NY Landlords (by Robert,OntarioCanada [ON]) Posted on: Apr 17, 2019 3:44 PM
Income maybe insufficient to pay rent where eventually will end up in eviction. Best to completely switch out all the utilities as those with unpaid utilities will not qualify for a rental unit. Unpaid utilities and unpaid rent go hand in hand together. In the province of Ontario due the hostile environment many of the smaller rental housing providers sold houses and apartment buildings to very large corporations who kick out then raise rents to higher levels. That is the only way to survive as it takes a large amount of funds to renovate completely trashed out rental unit. So in the end the lower end of the rental housing market is gone as those on social assistance only option is the housing authority. --147.194.xxx.xx
NY Landlords (by small potatoes [NY]) Posted on: Apr 17, 2019 8:35 PM
Ken, I currently have a prospect that has Section 8 and with that they do not meet my minimum monthly income threshold. So arse covered, no? I am more concerned about not being able to say no to DSS because it is usually short term and then the person lands back where they were before they got the assistance. Plus prospects use it for the deposit and have no skin in the game. Thoughts? --24.194.xx.xx
NY Landlords (by DJ [VA]) Posted on: Apr 17, 2019 9:56 PM
Wow, another one!
Do these legislators seriously not realize that the eventual impact will be LESS affordable housing options for the low income people?! Income requirements will be raised, so Landlords will still be able to screen them out.
Hey! Here's an idea! Teach / expect people to be responsible for the natural consequences of their behavior. Perhaps our fine public school system could teach basic budgeting and money-management skills - since apparently we have so many in the current generation who don't have these skills & therefore certainly don't teach them to the next generation. --68.10.xxx.x
NY Landlords (by fred [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 4:08 AM
Governors and mayors, they are all doing it for votes, so they can keep their jobs.
They know that the end results will hurt those they pretend to protect and help, but they don't care. They know that they lose votes from LLs, but they count on more votes from Ts. For them it's only the net votes that counts, so they can stay in office. --99.59.x.xxx
NY Landlords (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 4:29 AM
Small potatoes,i don't mind DSS in a low end unit,it is Section 8 that I don't like with there inspections but my position with Section 8 will be they have not accepted the unit till I receive first month and security like anyone else and that will take them a long time to do inspections etc so I will fill the unit before that happens anyway.I take DSS if everything else passes and DSS will be ongoing,recently I turned someone down because he was getting 2 months from DSS but that was all and he said he would get a job within 2 months,if he wants a job he could go get 1 any day of the week,everybody is hiring so that is bs --72.231.xxx.xxx
NY Landlords (by Vee [OH]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 9:34 AM
I hear if the unit won't pass then the client can't get the unit with keys - there must be 3, 4 ,5 - 6 other things that produces a big stumble with sec8 clients. --76.188.xxx.xx
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 9:44 AM
The government can't force anyone to sign a contract. But they can punish you for discriminating.
If an applicant has the required income, why do you care to discriminate because of the source of that income? For example, if part of an applicant's income comes from a trust fund, why prefer a working applicant. Or, if a divorced woman has income from alimony and/or child support, why discriminate? All sources of income are subject to change and interruption, including wages.
NY Landlords (by Lana [IN]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 9:45 AM
Ken, they are planning enforced vaccine injections as well. They know no boundaries in their insanity. If they drive you out of business, they have money to give their buddies to build great government supported complexes with all types of support.
Be careful, NY and CA audit refugees from their insanity and they want their pound of flesh/loot before they finally let you go.
Search New York exit tax;
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 9:50 AM
How is section 8 considered income? Is it not a subsidy? Doesn't come from grants or federal funds? If you screen your tenant for three times the monthly rent and verifiable income, how can you add in the section 8 to that? You don't add in child support. I'm not asking to start any sort of argument, I'm just looking for clarification on that. Because to me it doesn't seem like section 8 Is an income source. --174.201.xx.xx
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 9:52 AM
I guess what I'm saying is that a section 8 tenant is not going to claim section 8 payments for rent on their tax return or are they? I don't know the answer to that. To me in order for it to be income, I would assume that it would have to be claimed on their taxes. --174.201.xx.xx
NY Landlords (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 10:06 AM
Moshe,i would be happy to take trust fund money,i take SSI and welfare I just don't like Section 8 with there inspections and dealing with the staff at the office is worse than dealing with the tenants.Not to mention I don't like being told by anyone especially the government what I have to do --72.231.xxx.xxx
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 10:10 AM
Ken, how about taking the route of simply not complying with repair requests, inspections, etc? Putting all costs required for section 8 inspections for the units to pass onto the tenant. Make their life had too. Just a thought. --174.201.xx.xx
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 10:25 AM
No one here seems to be able to address the actual problem (if there is one) posed by discrimination based on source of income.
If a married man works, gets paid, and uses the money to support his children, is that counted toward qualification to rent?
If a divorced woman works & gets paid, also gets child support, and uses it to support her children, why shouldn't that be counted toward qualification to rent? To discriminate on this basis constitutes discrimination on basis of family status.
A landlord is not required to participate in Section 8 program. If he does, the section 8 program pays an amount which the applicant uses toward his housing expense, just as he would with wages.
Taxes are a matter between citizen and IRS. It has nothing to do with accepting a tenant, except in calculating after-tax available income.
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 10:40 AM
I don't know Moshe, I don't think that's as cut and dry as you think it is. It's a very common line of thinking here to not accept child support as a verifiable source of income due to how unstable it is. Totally different than a w-2 job. W-2 jobs can be unstable, but can be replaced with very little effort. Child support vanishes if the person stops paying, not dependable, not replaceable.
It DOES NOT constitute discrimination based on family status. If a woman comes to rent from me and does not have three times the monthly rent in verifiable income from other sources, but does from child support and I choose to not rent to her based on the child support not being a source of income I use in application approval. How is that familial discrimination? It's not. It's simply good screening. Child-support is a wishy-washy form of income. It's like lottery winnings or gambling proceeds.
Also, taxes absolutely do have something to do with accepting a tenant if you're looking at tax returns as part of the qualification process. Any 1099 employee, that anyone here rents to, needs to present those. What else are you gonna look at? They don't have paystub's.
There will be multiple ways to work around this requirement of renting to section 8. They just haven't been brought to the surface yet. If there's one thing that good landlords are good at, it's getting around nonsense. --174.201.xx.xx
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 10:42 AM
For example, one very straightforward and simple solution is to know exactly what section 8 will pay for similar properties in your area and list everything five dollars above that. --174.201.xx.xx
NY Landlords (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 10:46 AM
Moshe,in NY I can no longer turn someone down because they are on Section 8 so yes the state is forcing landlords to participate.It is called Lawful source of income non discrimination act of 2019. as far as child support goes it is not garnishable so someone landlords don't accept income they cant garnish against and child support seems to come and go,as soon as the dad changed jobs or gets arrested the mother doesn't get child support for awhile and has a lack of income and that means possibly no rent. --72.231.xxx.xxx
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 10:59 AM
It IS familial discrimination, and thats why it comes up as a subject for legislation.
ALL income is subject to change and disruption, child support no more or no less than the type of wage that goes with non-university-graduate's jobs (and even university graduates are subject to budget cuts and other disruptions in their lives).
Discrimination because of not including child support in qualification calculation is also gender discrimination. Have you ever heard of the Rule of Disparate Impact? That theory, supported by Housing & Urban Development regulation, is based on the fact that women are more likely than men to be impacted by a landlord's policy to exclude Child Support payments from calculation of income qualification, and it therefore qualifies as discrimination on basis on gender. Better learn about it if you want to stay out of court.
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 11:11 AM
Child support is not income.
Criminal is gone or going, it appears that income is also going. Landlord judgements are also bong dropped from credit reporting.
Thankfully we can always fall back on credit, our last strong hold of sanity. At least for now…
No, I haven't heard of the Rule of Dispate impact. I'm not wasting time with theory.
I'm in the LL and RE game for me and me alone. I'm in it for me to win.
Someone once said on here, show me a rule and I will show you a way around it. I play on the team that tries to get around it. We are fundamentally different Moshe. Opposite ends of the spectrum. --174.201.xx.xx
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 11:42 AM
RE: Rule of disparate impact.
If an applicant gets a lawyer and sues you for discrimination based on the Disparate Impact rule, you won't find a way around it. Actually, the applicant doesn't even need a lawyer. A simple complaint will generate a local agency to hire a lawyer AT THEIR EXPENSE (ultimately to be paid by you) who will file a lawsuit (actually 2 lawsuits, both NE state AND Federal) which you will NOT find a way around. Its not just a theory. There's even a Wikipedia entry for it.
So stay ignorant if you like, until a tenant, for whom you were unwilling to count child support in qualification calculation, picks up the telephone, and calls Fair Housing Center of Nebraska, Insurance won't cover you.
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 12:13 PM
I may read it, I may not. But what I'm not going to do is worry about it. All these obscure highly unlikely laws and regulations and things like that, you really really don't have to worry about in every day landlording. It's paranoia.
If you studied every possible scenario about what could happen and worried about every single little thing that could go wrong, you would never even rent your very first tenant.
But you did help me out just now, I'll tell you that. If I ever run into a situation where the income is not enough to qualify for approval without the child support being factored in, now I simply know to disqualify for something else. So thank you for that.
Veering off the subject a little, i have to ask you this, can you list several or any reasons why anyone should even get in this business? Especially with all the potential pitfalls you list? It's impossible to learn them all.
It seems to me that you view this landlord thing as nothing BUT pitfalls and how everybody's doing it wrong and the sky is falling. So I'm just wondering if you can recommend to someone why they should do it and why you're even in it yourself?
It seems like it would get to the point where you wouldn't even be able to sleep night for fear of making mistakes. --174.201.xx.xx
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 12:35 PM
Its NOT impossible to learn all the rules.
I studied mathematics for many years. The rules of landlording are simple in comparison.
I sleep very well at night, because I know what I am doing.
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 2:05 PM
NE: You are welcome for my having educated you about Disparate Impact rule.
Reading your other comments made me think about where you are coming from. A rent thread on this site asked about what value there might be to a higher education certificate to someone who wants to be a landlord.
Maybe one good reason is that people with higher education know how to, are willing to, and practice reading, and thinking about what they read in terms of what they do.
I studied mathematics for many years (MANY years), but I also read a lot of other things and think about what I am doing. I do this because I am accustomed to reading and thinking. But I also live in an environment in which everyone else is doing the same, and its part of my life.
Perhaps where you live is different from the rest of America. I note that there is no 1st tier university in NE (U Nebraska is rated #129), I couldn't find another Nebraska university on the list (for whatever the list is worth). I am suggesting that this relates to the level on which your environment may operate. Had you studied in a serious university, you might have come to realize that there are a lot of things in the world that you don't know about and that you should never assert that other claims are false, without investigating them.
Maybe NE is ignorant of the problems that federal initiatives have tried to solve: Civil Right, fair housing, fractured ethnic inequality, inflation, loss of jobs, global competition, and many more issues. Here in CA, we have outstanding universities (Berkeley, Cal Tech, Stanford, UCLA, USC, and many merely excellent ones), with outstanding law schools to boot, in addition to immigration of well-educated lawyers from Yale to Oxford. The practice of law here excels, and CA decision are copied all over the country. What you call obscure highly unlikely laws and regulations are everyday stuff here and in other big cities, and as you yourself suggest, a wise landlord knows to avoid the issue by being aware of its existence.
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 2:31 PM
I happen to love reading. And you are right, a wise landlord is aware of things so they know how to skirt around them. Avoiding by being aware. That's exactly right.
All of those bigger picture things that you listed, personally I don't care about them. I care about my success and I care about skirting around them or finding ways to do so that doesn't compromise my success or set me up for lawsuits, etc. (This does not include the obvious things like race, religion and sexual preference). I'm talking about fringe politics. (Esa's, not screening for criminal, forced Section 8 acceptance) I pay attention to what's going on with it, (so I'm aware enough to avoid) and I'll take my chances on that stuff.
As far as needing to know all the laws, no I don't. I need to read here. I need to have my lawyer or a couple lawyers review my lease and my application and my screening process every few years. I'm probably due for another one of those. It's been about 3 years now. Pay them to make sure that I'm doing this right. Will there be mistakes made along the way, sure. Am I worried? Not really.
How do you play this game yourself? Do you pre-screen, screen and lease all your units out personally or do you have a property manager do it? --174.201.x.xxx
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 2:44 PM
I choose my own tenants.
But I choose tenants with whom I can reason, who have adequate means and education, and I find that I have left many, many problems behind, years ago.
I haven't been to court in decades, and for years and years, I haven't found myself in any situation where I didn't know the right thing to do.
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 2:54 PM
How many years did you spend terrified of the phone ringing before you became so knowledgeable of all the laws? It seems you would've had to. For a while at least.
"You choose tenants with who you can reason and have adequate means." Exactly.
So do I.
In doing so, I separate the wheat from the chaff. In doing so, it requires me to skirt around a lot of this stuff. The big word things you post about.
Those big word things you post about support the majority of people I DONT WANT in my units. You know the ones I'm talking about. The ones you can't reason with and that don't have adequate means.
NY Landlords (by Taz [CT]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 4:02 PM
CT has had this law for quite some time. In fact, they have the fair housing department call landlords to "test" them to see if they are discriminating based on Section 8. You cannot say "NO, I don't except Section 8". You can, however, say, my unit is not inspected for Section 8. Usually they move on. Other than that, make sure you have a written criteria policy and the applicants I have seen generally don't qualify because they are incapable of filling out an application or their income is too low. --32.211.xxx.xxx
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 4:55 PM
' "You choose tenants with who you can reason and have adequate means." Exactly.
So do I. '
Adequate means includes child support, alimony, trust funds, fellowship stipends, etc.
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 5:07 PM
So you're telling me that if a person (non gender specific) has an "income" of only child support or only alimony that you will rent to them if everything else checks out?
I know what you'll probably say here, but really, would you? --174.201.x.xxx
NY Landlords (by MikeA [TX]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 6:45 PM
Just a question for those with these laws. If I accept the Section 8 income but refuse to sign the required federal contracts am I discriminating? I will count the income if they don't require me to comply with any contract other than my normal one (which I can't imagine they will do). It seems like a violation of constitutional rights if they force me to sign through back handed legislation. --50.26.xx.xxx
NY Landlords (by TAZ [CT]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 7:13 PM
MikeA - I don't think the Feds will pay you if you don't sign their contract. --32.211.xxx.xxx
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 18, 2019 7:53 PM
" ... if a person (non gender specific) has an "income" of only child support or only alimony that you will rent to them "
If their only income is alimony and child support, but it adds up to what I consider enough to comfortably pay their bills including rent, then yes, I have done that.
I had a tenant a couple of years ago who had separated from her husband, a surgeon, had $11,000 month spousal support & child support, and no other income. She stayed until she finished her MSW. As good a tenant as I would like.
NY Landlords (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 4:45 AM
Good, I don't have to worry about it then. It's a unicorn tenant scenario. --174.201.xx.xxx
NY Landlords (by Moshe [CA]) Posted on: Apr 19, 2019 8:53 AM
The point is, that she had sufficient income to cover her expenses, including rent. It doesn't matter what the source of the income is.
By the way, this is NOT a unicorn tenant scenario. With the number of divorces these days, I find that every time I have a vacancy, that I have at least one applicant for whom spousal support and child support is part of their income.
What I look at is character of the applicant plus sufficient means. Source of income is not a barrier.
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