How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 10:57 AM|
How to deny applications (by Frank [NJ]) Mar 10, 2019 11:14 AM
How to deny applications (by JB [OR]) Mar 10, 2019 11:16 AM
How to deny applications (by Jim In O C [CA]) Mar 10, 2019 11:26 AM
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 11:30 AM
How to deny applications (by Johnny B. [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 11:42 AM
How to deny applications (by Johnny B. [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 11:46 AM
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Mar 10, 2019 12:10 PM
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Mar 10, 2019 12:28 PM
How to deny applications (by plenty [MO]) Mar 10, 2019 12:37 PM
How to deny applications (by WL [CA]) Mar 10, 2019 1:31 PM
How to deny applications (by Lloyd [MD]) Mar 10, 2019 2:10 PM
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 2:36 PM
How to deny applications (by J [FL]) Mar 10, 2019 3:25 PM
How to deny applications (by Steve [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 4:13 PM
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 4:19 PM
How to deny applications (by J [FL]) Mar 10, 2019 4:32 PM
How to deny applications (by Lloyd [MD]) Mar 10, 2019 4:59 PM
How to deny applications (by RentsDue [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 5:31 PM
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 6:38 PM
How to deny applications (by Steve [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 7:22 PM
How to deny applications (by LindaJ [NY]) Mar 10, 2019 7:24 PM
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 8:02 PM
How to deny applications (by Steve [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 8:14 PM
How to deny applications (by Nicole [PA]) Mar 10, 2019 8:15 PM
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Mar 10, 2019 8:47 PM
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Mar 10, 2019 9:17 PM
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Mar 11, 2019 3:08 AM
How to deny applications (by J [FL]) Mar 11, 2019 5:23 AM
How to deny applications (by Steve [MA]) Mar 11, 2019 6:19 AM
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Mar 11, 2019 8:52 AM
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Mar 11, 2019 9:17 AM
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Mar 11, 2019 10:54 AM
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Mar 11, 2019 11:26 AM
How to deny applications (by Arnold [OH]) Mar 11, 2019 1:16 PM
How to deny applications (by Cjoíh [CT]) Mar 11, 2019 4:25 PM
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How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 10:57 AM
I own a 2 family that I live in with my family, I rent out the second floor. I well screened past tenants and have been lucky as I have had great tenants. The last remnant was here 5 years, he moved because he was moving in with girlfriend and she wanted to stay closer to where she lived. I have been getting some calls from people with homeBASE vouchers, as a rule I donít accept them or section 8, but I still show the unit anyway to avoid a discrimination problem. This last homeBASE person was rude from the first call, (she said Iím interested in the apartment, Iím on homeBASE is that a problem because itís illegal if you say it is. Then she kept putting off the showing time saying she didnít have a ride) needless to say I would never rent to her. My question is can I tell them legally Iím not going to rent to them over the phone based on screening questions, and if so what is the best way to say it to avoid a problem (such as discrimination) --71.248.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Frank [NJ]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 11:14 AM
Avoid all contact. The folks here from MA will know for sure, but do you have to rent to some folks even if you live in the other side.
In the meantime market someplace else and try like heck to get someone better qualified --74.105.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by JB [OR]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 11:16 AM
Deny her based on uncooperative and argumentative. Carefully document the details for your records.
You don't have to say anything about not going to rent to them for whatever. Just move on and delay or don't respond to them if they are not screening well. --24.20.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Jim In O C [CA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 11:26 AM
The problem that they do not have a ride is not your problem. Offer to show it to them when theyíre available and it meets your schedule requirements. In the meantime try to obtain a good replacement.
I donít Participate in the section 8 program but always offer to show the property non section 8. 99% of the section 8 tenants donít want to waste their own time And never look at the property. --24.130.x.xxx
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 11:30 AM
To Frank NJ, In MA an owner occupied 2 unit dwelling doesnít have to comply with most FHA laws. I can deny for just about any reason, but I have to comply with FHA laws when listing the unit. Which I donít really understand, I can deny an applicant with children, but I cannot advertise ďno childrenĒ --71.248.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Johnny B. [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 11:42 AM
When I advertise a unit I let all calls go to voicemail. My rental ad says to call, text, or email and leave your full name. If anyone mentions section 8 or homebase in their voicemail or text I often get forgetful about returning a call. My next step for people that make it past the voicemail is that I run their name through masscourts, google, sex offender registry, and Facebook. If anything looks undesirable based on my searches in these databases, I donít get in touch with them. If people make it to my next step I call them and ask a set list of screening questions. A lot of people on here dont like to talk with perspective tenants, but I find it to be a valuable step in my screening process. For prospects that still look good after my prescreening, Iíll setup a showing. If I get dooped and end up on the phone with a voucher holder, I tell them that Iíd happily accept their voucher. I then ask them to email me whatever information Iíd need to make my unit ready for the required inspection. In the handful of times Iíve done this, none have ever followed up with the email or contacted me again. --24.147.xx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Johnny B. [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 11:46 AM
Keep in mind that because of how hard it is in Massachusetts to get a tenant out itís in your best interest to have a robust screening process to save you much time and money down the line. --24.147.xx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 12:10 PM
I hand out a paper application at the house showing, after doing much the same as Johnny B. This prospect cannot get a ride to view the place and pick up the application. I number the applications in the order I receive them, I also number the contacts (when the called, texted in response to add. If they complied with all of my directions in that contact. I ask for Full name, including middle initial, month and day of birth, but NOT year. I make note if THEY included year.) So, while she may have been the very first to contact me, she isn't the first to view the property, or to get the application filled out and ready to be picked up. I pick up application at their house. "How you keep where you stay now is how you'll keep my place."
By the time I get an application picked up, I have gotten most of the info I need to accept or deny, the rest can be done quickly online. And I can offer to a tenant without attitude, and hasn't ticked everyone in their life off so much they cannot get rides. Then, when anyone else who finally has gotten their business together calls again, " I process applications in order received, the unit has been rented. If I have had a particularly "interesting" set of applicants, this message could go on my voicemail. (Haven't had to put that on voicemail yet.) Then let all calls go to voicemail.
Document what she said, how it was said, date, time. also document failed attempts at being able to procure rides, especially more than one. With Uber, Lyft, cabs, there is no excuse. If she has done any 'no shows', no response to information asked, document that. Keep those notes 'clinically professional", no aside comments (no comments like mine above about WHY she may not have been able to get a ride.) Save all of that documentation. I keep a themebook for each property, with two open pages for each applicant. It is saved in my file cabinet. My grandkids can throw them out someday.
Not sure if my suggestions will fly in your state, or if they are the best way. Trying to get ideas flowing here. Anyone feel free to advise against anything I mentioned that is wrong/ unadvisable.
What Johnny B said sounds like a very, very good plan to me. --70.92.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 12:28 PM
I should have also given a shout out to all the others above, I basically said the same as what others above said, I just blathered on more. Jim, JB, and Frank all had it right, imo.
Sad that we have to go through such machinations to keep rude/aggressive people from living in the same building as our families. --70.92.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by plenty [MO]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 12:37 PM
Schedule an open house from 2 to 4pm and invite them all to come at that time. Tell them all "Yes you can see the place the time to do that is ----insert time convenient for you ----- " disqualify them for as many other reasons you can --99.203.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by WL [CA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 1:31 PM
GKarl,s prescreen questions work wonders on deadbeats. Deadbeats don't want to answer the questions and until they do, they don't get the address. Have an open house only for those willing to comply with your email questionnaires. --184.185.xxx.xx
How to deny applications (by Lloyd [MD]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 2:10 PM
I own a 4 bedroom house in a nice neighborhood and have never chosen to rent to Section 8/voucher recipients. The main problem is the rent maximums. The rent for homes like mine is high and I don't want to be limited in how I handle rent increases. Also my father-in-law has rented through this program and tells me how hard its been for some renters to still pay their (small) portion of the rent. Usually the caller asks if I participate and I say no. Based on the previous posts, am I out of compliance? I never heard that a landlord is required to accept the program. My understanding is there is lots of paperwork and regular inspections. I simply don't have the time to deal with this given the rental market is very active in my area. --100.15.xx.xx
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 2:36 PM
To Lloyd MD, I have always aired on the side of coution and never denied due to section 8, I just deny based on other reasons that are legal. A quick google search will tell you that federal law does not require that you participate in the section 8 program, however some states such as MA, CT, and MD require you to participate. In NJ if a tenant that already is living in the unit becomes eligible the landlord must accept section 8. So if you live in 1 of these states saying you do not accept section 8 is discrimination. Still in other states there are laws saying you cannot discriminate based on source of income, my understanding is that the courts in this case have ruled that the section 8 payments are made from the federal government to the local housing authority, to the landlord. Therefore the monies are considered income of the landlord not the tenant. But as I have previously stated, I air on the side of caution as I donít need the aggravation or wish to pay the legal fees to defend myself against a discrimination lawsuit. So I treat everyone the same and show the unit, but automatically deny section 8 or homeBASE applications, (but for legal reasons) which after suggestions I have gotten from this post I will document and keep in a file just in case. --71.248.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by J [FL]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 3:25 PM
Are they actually forcing people to accept Section 8 in some places now? --72.188.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Steve [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 4:13 PM
Johnny B. [MA] provided you with a very good answer. I do something similar for my SFDs. However for my multis I don't automatically try to find a way to not accept (notice I didn't say deny) S8. Years ago when HomeBase first started I took a chance with a couple of their clients. Things didn't work out well & I evicted them from both units.
Since part of my written applicant selection requires all applicants to never had caused a past or present LL to be forced to spend needless funds dealing with them, I always have this as a way to not accept them. I also find that most applicants do not fully complete my application which gives me yet another reason to not accept them.
Since you are an owner occupant in a 2 family, you may be more selective than a non owner occupied LL. Google discrimination by owner occupied LLs in MA. --96.237.xx.xx
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 4:19 PM
In MA I can say for sure that they are!!! It is illegal in MA to reject a application based solely on section 8. As far as I know I can reject for reasons such as ďl believe the tenant does not have the ability come up with their portion of the rent, or because the housing authority wonít pay the rent requested for the unitĒ. And Iím sure they will change that at some point. But as far as just denying based solely on the fact they are on section 8, yup in MA thatís illegal. So fortunately thus far I have found in the application process legal reasons to reject them. This state is a joke, the politicians are putting the burden of homelessness and poverty on private landlords. The government comes up with housing vouchers and programs that end up screwing landlords. So landlords end up not wanting to accept the programs, rather than fix the program and provide assistance to landlords they just pass a law requiring us to accept their flawed programs. You really want to read about a flawed program in MA search ďHomeBASEĒ on this site, donít even get me started on that grenade the state wants us to put in our apartments. --71.248.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by J [FL]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 4:32 PM
Even if they passed screening, I don't understand how this can work. The LL could just deliberately fail the S8 inspection, or not send in all the S8 paperwork. --72.188.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Lloyd [MD]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 4:59 PM
Steve would you please provide the specifics for the wording of what you mean by "written applicant selection requires all applicants to never had caused a past or present LL to be forced to spend needless funds dealing with them"
Sounds like I need to update my application. Much appreciated! --100.15.xx.xx
How to deny applications (by RentsDue [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 5:31 PM
I had a similar scenario. An applicant said that I HAD to rent to her because she had a housing voucher or it was discrimination. She insisted she did not need to fill out my application because she was ď already approvedĒ because of her voucher. She acted like that voucher was Willy Wonkas Golden Ticket. I explained to her that she was confused about the legalities of it and I did not have to rent to her because of the voucher, I just couldnít deny her because of it. She started ranting about ď Donít you know who I am?Ē and ď This is going to cost youĒ . It was a scare tactic to get in the door and it didnít work out for her. I wonít show a place to someone who is hostile or threatening and I donít have to. My lease specifies that behavior is unacceptable so why would I ever allow it at a showing. I have had Homebase tenants. My screening is tough but if someone qualifies then they qualify . --71.10.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 6:38 PM
( To J in FL,) In MA saying the apartment wonít pass inspection is considered discrimination, if it fails you are required to make the repairs to make it pass. The state also mandates for section 8 you have to provide a 1 or 2 year lease, and itís illegal to say you wonít take section 8 because you only do month to month. The state mandates you must alter your lease to accommodate section 8. Then the state mandates that the tenant can terminate the lease at any point as long as they give you 30 day notice if they are accepted into another housing program. (Basically saying the landlords have to accept them, must make all repairs to make the unit pass section 8 inspection at LL cost, alter your lease to accommodate them, and allow them to terminate the lease as soon as a better opportunity arises!) I donít understand how that as a LL I have to give them a 1 year lease, but they basically stay as a month to month tenant!!! Like I have said this state is a joke. --71.248.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Steve [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 7:22 PM
Jkj[MA], do you require all of your accepted applicants to pay a complete first month's rent, a complete last month's rent, a SD equal to the first month's rent, a reasonable key / lock fee (mine's $75.00) as well as verification that the utilities are in the name of the tenant on the rental agreement prior to turning over the keys?
Do you have a written list of tenant selection criteria? If not you really should develop one. --96.237.xx.xx
How to deny applications (by LindaJ [NY]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 7:24 PM
The day I am required to take a tenant I do not wish to have is the day I will no longer have a rental.
At least in NY (the progressive vampire state) we can chose to not participate in section 8. I just say I am not section 8 approved and be done with it. The one time I looked into the program, one of the first things they asked for was my SS number, I refused to give it. They dropped everything. Of course that was many years ago. --108.4.xxx.xx
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 8:02 PM
To Steve in MA, Yes I require first, last, and security, I require verification the utilities are in their name before turning over the keys, I have my tenant selection criteria in writing, I keep in a secure file cabinet with all applications that were submitted and I turned down as well as a brief letter explaining the reasons they were rejected just in case I ever have to explain myself against discrimination. I do not charge a key/lock fee but I will now thank you for the advice. Also just so thereís no confusion, I do not accept section 8 or HomeBASE, I just air on the side of caution and reject them for another legal reason. My screening criteria is fairly strict, and it applies to all applicants. As I said I have a file cabinet full of denied applicants of all races and income levels, not just the protected class. I was recently told by a realtor friend of mine that I can no longer ask for 1st, last, and security I can only ask for only 1st and last or 1st and security. Has anyone else heard that and is it true? --71.248.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Steve [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 8:14 PM
Your "realtor friend" is mistaken. In MA a LL may require a first, last, SD equal to or less than first and a reasonable key / lock fee. You don't have to require all of these however IMO you should. It's important to remember that certain procedures need to be followed when accepting any monies from new tenants especially regarding escrowing, unit conditions and interest paid. --96.237.xx.xx
How to deny applications (by Nicole [PA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 8:15 PM
rather than coming up with random times, tell her to contact you when she has a ride. then, take your time calling back and not be available and tell her to let you know next time she gets a ride. --72.70.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 8:47 PM
To Steve in MA, Thank you for all the advise, I am going to implement everything you suggested that I am not already doing. I actually googled about the 1st, last, SD laws in MA after I was told that about a month ago and read exactly what you said. I thought maybe the law changed since April of 2018 which was the date listed on the Masslegalhelp web page I read that on. I have always in the past required 1st, last, SD. I mistakenly was told I could no longer ask for all 3, But Iím gonna change the add to include 1st, last, and SD. I am familiar with unit inspection reports signed by the tenant at the time of key transfer, keeping the security deposit in an escrow account, and paying interest on held last months rent and I follow all those procedures. --71.248.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 9:17 PM
Jkj, not that I think you should take this woman, or any particular applicant, but, I have heard from landlords in my area that many Section 8 tenants are great. Certainly not all, but there are some good ones out there. I havenít accepted Section 8 before, because I have always only done month to month tenancies, but I wasnít necessarily opposed to it. Recently, my city made Section 8 a protected class, though the program still requires one year lease. My understanding is, I do not have to change the terms I offer, just to accommodate Section 8, and I am happy with MTM, so, unless they will sign on for month to month tenancy, I may never get to see for myself if there are terrific tenants in the program.
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Posted on: Mar 11, 2019 3:08 AM
To Busy [WI], I think this topic got a little off track, my initial concern was with a incredibly rude caller that has a homeBASE voucher. In my state HomeBASE is a program that gives money to homeless families currently living in a homeless shelter, hotel, or other ďunsafeĒ area. These people are given up to 1 years rent , (but majority of the time 3 months rent and security deposit) and furnishings for the apartment. After that they are on their own with the hopes this ďshot in the armĒ helps them get a job, or stay employed and not return to being homeless. This particular caller was rude from the first call, then I kept calling to confirm showing and she would almost arrogantly say ďI need to make it later, I donít have a rideĒ After pushing it back 3 times from 4:00 pm to 7:30 I finally said we are going to have to reschedule for another day I have things to do, she then very rudely said ďyou canít even wait for me to get a ride, itís discrimination if you donít accept HomeBASEĒ So I was asking if there was a way to tell her over the phone that I wonít be renting to her and not have to worry about being accused of discrimination. I received several suggestions on how to deal with her as well as many other good policies I am implementing from this thread, especially from Steve [MA]. I only own a 2 family house that my family lives in in 1 unit, and I rent the other. I have to be very selective on who I rent to. I must say this site is an incredibly valuable tool for me, Iíve been renting out half of this house for over 15 years but this sites Q&A helps me so much by getting the thoughts of people that have been doing this on a larger scale than me and in some cases as their only business. Their thoughts and experiences are very helpful to me and I appreciate everyone who took the time to answer this post. Thank you everyone --71.248.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by J [FL]) Posted on: Mar 11, 2019 5:23 AM
JKJ thanks for the explanation. --72.188.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Steve [MA]) Posted on: Mar 11, 2019 6:19 AM
Loyld [MD] Steve would you please provide the specifics for the wording of what you mean by "written applicant selection requires all applicants to never had caused a past or present LL to be forced to spend needless funds dealing with them"
It's not part of my rental application. It's part of my written criteria for selecting tenant once they have applied. --96.237.xx.xx
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Mar 11, 2019 8:52 AM
Jkj, no, the discussion of whether or not to accept voucher income isnít off track. That you go through extra steps just to avoid accepting a method of payment which may or may not be so bad, was the very reasons states and cities are making it mandatory.
We never have to accept others who were rude. We just need to document that. OTOH, it has to be terribly frustrating for those who think they are getting some financial assistance to keep getting turned away. NOT EVER an excuse for an applicant to be rude and pushy,
As I mentioned, I have only ever done MTM. I do NOT have to change that with my cityís law. It is upon the voucher system to accept MTM. That the rude caller had voucher payments was really neither here or there. She was rude. All the mention of Ď as a rule I donít accept them or Section 8, but I still show the unit to them anyway to avoid a discrimination problem.í Doesnít even need to be part of the question. But, it was mentioned. So, it was artificially made part of the problem. Thatís where trouble could come in.
ĎThen I kept calling to confirm showingí. WHAT?!? Donít do that . Donít chase them. She gave you an out right there, and you chose to engage. She was rude the first time, but YOU called HER to confirm showing? Let her no -show, document it, move on.
No need to keep arguing with people. Keep conversations simple. All of the conversation about homebase was un-needed. Waaay to many machinations to avoid risk of discrimination. Say very little, and DONít CHASE tenants by calling them. You can simply schedule open house as Plenty said, and they either get a ride or donít. --70.92.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Mar 11, 2019 9:17 AM
BTW, I donít put open house times in my ads, though I donít see any issue with that. I get a bit of info by text, do some prescreening, then call to tell some, but not all, of those who texted the address and time of the showing. I schedule appointments at fifteen minute intervals. I donít have a set of prescreening questions, I just let them talk., taking notes as they do. Document what they say, how they say it! Keep documentation clinically professional. They will spill all kinds of details in asking their questions, telling their stories. (Yes, I like hearing all of the stories, that works in my landlording practice.) Those that show up for their appointed time are allowed to view the house unaccompanied , I donít show while still having a tenant, but, I am listening carefully, observing their interactions. Then I answer questions, give all an application (donít turn someone down face to face inside a unit. Very dangerous. Give them the application. ) At that point, I say, Ď I only do month to month periodic tenancies. I think it keeps both of us on our toes. I think year long leases make landlords lazy , they know they donít have to be quick about repairs, they have the tenant locked in.í Prospects EAT THAT UP!
Do you see how I did that, jkj? Did I have any discussion of any payment system? Nope! And, if the voucher system allows for MTM, which I actually would prefer, I would continue to screen normally. I know a couple of Section 8 neighbors, and Iíd rent to them in a heartbeat! Great people. Others.....well, they probably would want to argue about getting rides... Nope. No arguing. --70.92.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Jkj [MA]) Posted on: Mar 11, 2019 10:54 AM
To Busy [WI], thank you great advise, I guess looking back I was concerned about giving the address, then this ignorant person I donít know doing something to my home if they got there and I wasnít there to show unit. I followed up to see if they were in coming or not before I left. In the future I will implement you system. Thank you again for your knowledge. --174.192.xx.xx
How to deny applications (by Busy [WI]) Posted on: Mar 11, 2019 11:26 AM
To clarify, when I say unoccompanied, I mean I donít follow them room to room, I stay in another room, listening. Iím with you about not wanting them there lockbox style, though I can see many advantages to that method as well.
With the follow up to see if they are coming, perhaps do as others on the forum also suggest, tell them to call you so many minutes ahead to verify. Still get confirmation of the appointment, but puts it on them.
You seem like a very astute learner. --70.92.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Arnold [OH]) Posted on: Mar 11, 2019 1:16 PM
I make an appointment with the prospective tenant and tell them that they have call me at least at least a half hour before the appointment time to let me know they are on the way to see the rental. If they do not call, I do not go for the appointment. That has saved me from wasting my time with 'a no show". --173.91.xxx.xxx
How to deny applications (by Cjoíh [CT]) Posted on: Mar 11, 2019 4:25 PM
Busy, hey girl,howís she cutting, have a few section 8s nice people, no problem..gotta go to grocery store and get someIrish Soda BreadEasier than me making it advoid a catastrophe.......Charlie........ --32.214.xxx.xx
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