Prenuptial agreement.

Anyone use one? I'm getting married soon, and while there are no storm clouds on the horizon, so to speak, I've heard the horror stories. My net worth is much higher than hers. I have about a dozen rental. They are my life savings and my livelihood. They are solely in my name. If things don't work out, God forbid, I need to keep all of them. Spliting them up is not an option.

This is not something to do online. Get a lawyer. The 3000.00 could be well worth it.

Or expect to lose at least half. Marriage is now more of a temporary relationship. Lets face it people change.

How many people get divorced. And none thought it could happen.

And studies show no matter how much a women makes. Even very high income. The majority will only marry a man that makes more. Is there a reason who knows.

FOR GOD'S SAKE, GET A LAWYER!!! Would you gamble half of everything you own just to save a few bucks by doing it yourself? Not to sound mean but this has to be done by lawyers or her divorce lawyer will chew it apart and you'll lose your shirt.

We did a prenupt and have a great marriage of 17 years. Here's the way I look at it. My income was asset based, her's was skills based. If we got divorced she could take half of my income earning ability and retain all of hers. Also her career is lawsuit intensive and mine is not. I wanted to guaranty that my assets wouldn't be touched by a lawsuit that she might incur during her career.

Marriage is a gamble. Prenuptual agreements even the odds so that both have equal risk. You should both enter the marriage in a Win/Lose situation. If the marriage works, you both win, if it fails, you both lose or leave as you came in. If she is broke going into the marriage, and rich coming out, that's a win/win scenario. Whether the marriage is successful or not, she's still a winner.

Here's where the need for a lawyer comes in. First of all, she needs to hire a lawyer and you need to hire a lawyer (different lawyers) and everyone needs to get together to form an agreement between both parties if it's going to have any weight. It can't be a "here, sign this thing I got off the Internet" scenario.

It doesn't end there. You need to fully understand and abide by "Separation of Assets" part of the agreement. Not only do you need to separate assets, you need to keep them separate. In other words, none of HER money should go into repairing YOUR houses and none of YOUR money should go into HER assets. It's complicated and if done correctly, becomes a part of your life. You have a bank account, she has a bank account, there may be a joint account for bills not related to separate assets, etc. All of this needs to be obeyed religiously otherwise it's an excuse to null the prenupt.

The prenupt not only protects you from her, and vice versa, it also protects you from her lawsuits, and her from yours. That was a strong issue for my insistance on a prenupt.

Once you have kids, the prenupt weakens as far as you vs her, but at that point, you'll know how the marriage is going.

Both of us got taken to the cleaners from our first and rather brief marriages so you'd think we would have insisted on prenups but marriage was the furthest thing from our minds. When we did finally marry after 18 years there was no purpose for a prenup since all of our holdings were and are completely intertwined.

Common law marriage actually only exists in 12 states and depending on the state it can be recognized after one year together. The bigger issue for you is common property law states where everything is divided equally rather than equitably. Equitable distribution generally only applies to marital assets so that property or assets owned individually prior to the marriage are not normally part of the settlement. Of course any gifts you have given to each other,either before or during the marriage, think engagement rings, etc., belong to the recipient of the gift. And inheritances are not included in settlements unless both parties are named as beneficiaries.

Having said all of that divorce laws will vary by state.

If you are seriously considering this you need to talk to a good attorney. I suggest a divorce attorney since this is definitely their bailiwick.

In CA, community property rules say that in a divorce, what you had before the "I do" remains yours and she had before the "I do" remains hers - yes, even without a prenup agreement.

However, 12 home cluster is substantial, and you should get a prenup agreement. Now here is something to gauge her "true love": If she says "no way" - you will know that she has those thoughts of sharing your assets in a divorce, or she is listening to advise from friends and family.

What's wrong with staying "just friends"?

Linda J and NC Investor.

My post was not my opinion. Just a study that was done recently that I read.

Article was more about distribution of wealth in the US. When men marry they went across the board. To women rich or poor and therefore it allowed some lower and middle class women to move up the ladder.

But that the stats showed most women married men that made more. So it did not help move anyone up to a higher standard of living. And one of the reasons the gap between rich and poor is greater. At least according to the article.

Marriage is work and some times you give 110 % and sometime you give 5%. and some times 50%. However I hope you or she does not keep score!!!

Consider creating s legal structure to place your real estate holdings in that structure.

Plus have a pre-nup however if your value before the marriage with $100K in net worth and her value is $25K net worth. And now you are married. What did each of you add to the marriage in 5 years. Does she make $50K and you make $150K now what happens how do you determine who gets what because of the income difference and does she get any of your retirement money??? Like others have said talk to a lawyer about the pre-nup. Then talk to her about the pre-nup, she may say sure no problem and will sign it. However she may walk as well so be prepared for that then realize why she walked. Not that you are going to throw out the pre-nup and marry because you don't want her to walk.

Money is an important issue.

A friend of mine, 60 years of age, was getting married for the first time. He is smart, handsome and rich. His wife to be is sweet, honest and a good person. A couple of months before the wedding he asked for a "prenup" agreement. She got insulted and the wedding is off, relationship is over.

Another friend, 52 years old, was getting married also for the first time. His wife to be was divorced twice before. They are both wonderful people. So instead of causing any problems, they both agreed on a post-nup agreement after the wedding. Since she has children from her first marriage she wanted her kids protected in case of a divorce, etc.

At her attorney's office they had to fill out their net worth at the time of marriage. She stated she was worth around $900,000. They her husband stated, "I'm not exactly sure what my net worth is, maybe somewhere between 6 and 9 million dollars. And he stood to inherit around 10 million from his parents". The wife's attorney then stated to the wife, "You are stupid to ask for a post-nump agreement". The husband died 9 years later, leaving her with a small amount, not 15 million.

Nope. No prenup. If you have concerns about your intended, don't get married.

If you have no concerns, proceed with your wedding. BUT ...

Remember, you are taking a vow FOR LIFE. If it ends up not working out, you may get taken to the cleaners. So, that right there is more incentive to do what it takes to stay married. But it also should make you stop and think again about getting hitched in the first place. If you don't like those thoughts, then don't get married.

Advice from someone married 22.5 years. First and last marriage for me.

I tend to agree with Steve [TN], but I also see the reality in today's world. I just went through this. I won't go into details. My advice: get a prenup.

I see the advice here on what you bring in stays yours and that's true, but only on the surface. If the value increases during the marriage, you split that value increase. So if you have a rental(s) and pay down the mortgage balance $100k during the marriage, you now how $100k of increased equity. Guess who gets $50k of it?

Congratulations on the upcoming nuptials!

I have no opinion of my own on this, but I'll share the advice my mentor Dave Ramsey gives.

Prenups are usually a no-no, except in situations like yours where one party brings substantially larger assets into the relationship. The main reason he cites are the weird relatives. Money does weird things to people. When you marry someone, you've heard the old saying...you marry her family too.

There will be weird in your family, somewhere. If you don't think there's any weird in your family or hers, then the weird ones are you and your betrothed.

My personal view is a spouse should always be a 100% partner, as the old wedding vows say, "unto thee I pledge all my worldly goods." HOWEVER, we recognized that family weirdness may some day intervene, and therefore a prenup prepared by a skilled attorney is sometimes in order. That way when weird brother-in-law Lenny starts to think he somehow hit the jackpot because his sister married you, there's already an iron clad document in place to stop his drooling.

I also say pay a lawyer for a proper prenup (term actually used here is an Antenuptial Agreement)

Totally disagree with the statement above that after 7 years you are legally married ... maybe in some states but not all. Pennsylvania has specifically stated no such thing as common law marriages, no matter what.

Prenups are arguable during the divorce.

One party simply says they felt pressured to sign, didnt understand or were under duress.

Andrew CANADA,

"I was under pressure to sign, din't understand and were under duress"?

Won't fly. There are lawyers to consult before you make a decision.

Doogie,

I have a friend who divorced. The judge let him keep 100% of his properties he bought prior to the wedding, plus ALL THE APPRECIATION IN VALUE.

Mutual properties he bought with his wife, form the day they were married till the day they divorced, were divided by the court.

Fred, you are right as to the basic proposition that in CA, property owned before marriage remains separate property. [Frank is in MI, and I have no idea what the laws are in MI -- I think I know which state MI is, but I predate the two letter abbreviations, and "Mich" or "Miss" or something else would be more in line with what I learned -- less ambiguous. So obviously I don't know the laws of whichever state Frank is from!] However, there are some very important exceptions in CA, which is part of why a lay person should bite the bullet and pay a professional!

Let’s look at two salaried employees, mid-management types, with no ownership interests in their respective employers. Husband and wife each own a house, both have mortgages. They move into H’s house as the marital residence, and W’s house becomes a rental.

The day after they get back from the honeymoon, they both go into work. Suddenly, their salaries are community property. They put their paychecks into their new joint checking account. A month later, they write a check on the family home’s mortgage. They do this for the next 5 years, and then marital troubles cause a break-up.

For 5 years, 60 mortgage payments, the mortgage has been paid with community funds. The house is still held in Husband’s name, as a single man, because that is how he took title when he bought the house before he had even met Wife. But the house is now a “mixed asset”, part separate but with a piece of it owned by the community.

So your simplistic assertion (that because it was owned as of the date of marriage it remains H’s separate property) is incorrect.

Also, I know of dozens of cases in which a mortgage broker caused a married couple to refinance their home, and title was changed from a single person (due to pre-marital acquisition) to the married couple as joint tenants with the right of survivorship. This really messes up the nature of the property. Very few of these mortgage brokers were sued for their malpractice, and the divorce court had to deal with the mess -- called transmutation, and we've spent a lot of time and money fighting over it.

In the meantime, W’s rental house has appreciated in value, and has had positive cash flow. If she had hired a management company to manage the rental, and if she kept her income and expenses from that house in a separate bank account, her house has remained separate property. But if she managed the rental property on her own, the Court could find that there is a community property component to her house, because the management of the house by Wife was a use of community property (the W’s work effort) during marriage for the benefit of her separate property. In my prenuptial agreements, we specifically address the impact of the parties’ use of their marital efforts of their own separate property AND on their partner’s separate property – such as if the husband had done a lot of landscaping work on W’s rental property.

Also, maybe the community financed a new roof or a new AC unit for the house. Did the community acquire an ownership interest in the rental house from that use of community funds?

CA community property laws are very complicated and sophisticated, and professional assistance is very important for anyone looking to protect him/herself.

DISCLAIMER: I do not have a prenupt. I feel that it is very detrimental to a relationship to say to the person who you love enough to ask to marry you and share your lives together forever that “I want you to sign his document to protect my assets from you in case it does not work out.” Despite the cynicism from over 30 years as a divorce attorney, I could not do that to my wife. I had a good faith belief at the time of marriage that it was "'til death do us part."

Lets face it. Most will have at least one starter marriage.

Marriage is a contract for the other party to get half of everything you own and half of everything your hard work has built. If you don't get a prenup and advice from an attorney you are an idiot (bless your little heart - which makes everything ok). Been through 1 divorce. Never again.

Well, if I'm statistically supposed to get divorced someday, so be it. I don't want it, I'm not going to worry about it either.

I've been to the bottom. Several times.

Charlie, 62 years this Sept? Fantastic, my congratulations to both of you! Although how your bride could put up with you for all those decades, she must be a saint!!

Frank - The good news is, you do not live in a community property state. What this means is that assets owned solely by you prior to the marriage are likely to be returned solely to you in the event of a divorce. That's assuming you KEEP them solely owned by you. Don't add anyone to the title, in other words. Don't co-mingle assets.

The bad news is, you need a prenup - in my opinion - and you need a lawyer to draw one up. She needs a lawyer also, and if you are the one asking for the prenup, she may expect you to pay for her attorney, which is not unreasonable. Without separate legal representation, a court is very likely to "set it aside" in the event of a divorce. If you aren't going to get separate counsel, don't bother with a prenup.

In addition, the sooner you broach the subject, the better. Do NOT wait until a week or even month before the wedding to spring the prenup on her. Then it's signed "under duress" and again, it will likely not be upheld in court.

How old are you? That does have some bearing on the prenup idea. The older you are, the better when it comes to asking for a prenup. If you are young (under 35) and intend to have children with this woman, she may be especially insulted by the idea.

I can see both sides of the prenup issue. It presupposes divorce may happen, does not generate trust between the parties, and does not lead to warm fuzzy feelings, at all. In fact, it's a total romance killer.

But if as you said your net worth is significantly higher, and you want to guarantee you don't lose your hard won assets in a divorce, the best you can do is get a prenup. A prenup can also deal with all the other financial aspects of your marriage. For example, salary or income either of you earn during the marriage - does it remain separate, or is it "marital property"? What about other assets such as the family home, furniture, cars, etc? What happens when one of you dies - who gets the house, furniture, retirement savings, etc. (FYI, money in a 401k plan **by federal law** passes to the surviving spouse unless he/she waives his/her right to it...).

FYI, inherited money is rarely considered marital property. Even if you are married 20 years, if you inherit $1 million, the court is likely to consider it your separate property in a divorce.

Expect a negative reaction when you broach the subject with your intended, but broach it anyway, the sooner the better. Remind her that things can change. You could lose everything, she could start earning much more than you, the balance could swing the other way. This could happen, especially if you are young.

Good luck.

I married 11 years ago (my first marriage), my husband's second (he has 3 grown children, who don't care for me and that was day one of meeting me). Upon marrying, I had assets, he had assets and I had a home and he had a home (we both are retired). I have no children, my spouse does but they never visit or call and never does his 6 grandchildren.

HERE IS THE PROBLEM. When we married, he asked for a "Pre-nupt" but dragged the issue. Told me we were going to do it soon (it happened the night before the wedding and took hours and signed on our wedding day. I was truly mentally exhausted as my friends flew from out of town for the ceremony. I was sort of ticked my husband waited until the night before the wedding to get this done (I missed out chatting with my friends, the night before and they left the day after the wedding).

I signed that quickly because I was tired and worn out and actually read it a week later.

My husband is considerably older than me and for the past four and a half years, his health has been failing. I take care of him and he does not want anyone else to do it. Last week he updated his will with his attorney and I listened in horror; "he said he was broke."

After I heard him say to his attorney but promised the house we live in that I have been taking care of him in, he says was in an Irrevocable Trust to his children 20 years ago from his first wife (he never told me this). He told me he left me with a ten thousand dollar insurance policy. He also confessed to his attorney he had been supporting the woman he met before I came along because she needed help and has a kid. I neglected my own health, property and put aside work needed to get down for my home in another city to care for him (nursing homes for patients with my husband's level of care, who need around the clock assistance like him are pricey to the tune of about $14,000 a month or more). His children think it's funny that I was used.

What do you do when the funds to pay the wife to survive for a couple of months until she re-establishes herself no longer exist but went to another woman. Should I give him an invoice/or lien his Estate and treat this like a business as he has treated his family and/or hire a lawyer to tangle out this mess. I'm sure his lawyer will get paid. I still do a lot for my husband and receive nothing in return that comes close to what I d0 for him to extend his life.

Marlene,

If you didn’t have your own attorney independent of his when you signed, and you were pressured to sign it the night before the wedding, it is possible to get the pre-nun thrown out.

A wedding is a grand event.

I'd like to share a brief story on this subject. My good friend was getting married for the first time, he was around 50 years old. He had rental properties and a couple of good business. He lady he was getting married to was twice divorced with adult kids.

Before they got married she wanted a prenup agreement to protect her assets so if anything happened to her, her estate would go to her kids. So they made an appointment with a lawyer.

The lawyer needed to memorialize their current net worth in the prenup so that assets before the marriage would be kept seperate. The lawyer asked the women how much she was worth. Being married twice and owning a house, she put her net worth at around $900,000, a king's ransom. Then the attorney told my friend he needed to disclose his net worth to make the prenup agreement binding. He responded by saying he wasn't quite sure! Himself he had around 5 to 7 million and in partnership with his family he had an additional 14 million in property!

The attorney, hired by the women to protect her estate said, "You dummy! He had no x-wives or children. With no prenup you would have gotten at least 50% if contested by his parents and siblings -- around 20 million!".

My friend passed away a decade later, leaving his wife stuck with the prenup, getting almost nothing...

A marriage is, at its core, a business arrangement. It has nothing to do with love - you can love without marriage. But marriage solidifies and codifies PROPERTY RIGHTS, and a few other things in this country like medical proxies and things. State laws govern how marital property is distributed unless you come up with your own arrangements.

Kind of like a written lease.

I think a prenup is a great idea, but it should perhaps have a term life.

What’s hers is hers and what’s his is mine.

at the risk of being thought of as abrasive...if you don't get a prenup you're insane and you're doubly insane to try this as a self help exercise. you're getting legal advice from many states when that which you need is entirely specific to your state. the RULES on prenups is that each party has their own lawyer, they are hammered out well in advance of the ceremony (you can't deliver it the night before or on the church steps...no duress) and they are based on 100% truthful disclosure. if things work out all peachy keen you can always do an estate plan later that brings her into the wealth orbit you have created. you do have an estate plan...right? as landlords we all know there are MANY ways our life's work can be diminished or stolen...COVID eviction moratoriums anyone? rent control? why let the very real possibility of a failed marriage be one of the ways you are set back. if you do not get one and things go south and you commingle you will feel like a real chump as you grease her AND her lawyer. you don't mention if she has any wealth...perhaps you will find out she has some assets and smarts too. i guarantee SHE will have no interest in sharing.