Well my 93 yr young Aunt is finally needing help. She lives alone in the home her father (my grandfather) built.

In her words, "Something has happened and I'm all mixed up" ;(

(I am going to make a very long story short, here.)

I am POA, an "owner" on her main checking acct, Executor, and will inherit the (grandpa's) house. All of the family is aware of all of this.

Currently we are having help come 4 hours a day. Our main concern is making sure she eats and drinks enough as we think a lot of her issue is dehydration and blood sugar drops. Her health has been EXCELLENT. But, she is 93.

She is not rich but certainly not poor. Should she move to assisted living or full time nursing, I estimate her money would last 3-4 years.

My question: Should she burn thorough her money, I have read the state will come after her house. We should have had her quit claim to me years ago....I know...I know.... hindsight is 20/20.

I talked with the lawyer who set up her trust. I asked about the "look back" on assets. I was told it was 10 years. He said to go ahead and quit claim it and worry about it later if the state comes after it.

House has been in the family 110 years and for obvious reasons we don't want it sold.

Thoughts??

Thanks in advance.

No matter what advice is given, all decisions wind up being personal between her, you and others involved.

Any advice is only listened to and considered.

My personal opinion: find out what she wants and help her to do it. Many say, "I grew up here, live here and want to stay here". I respect their wishes.

If meet with an elder law specialist attorney.

Thanks, Richard...but that is NOT the issue.

My mandate was keep her home as long as possible and that is what I plan to do.

This can be a really hard time. I have been through it myself.

But, why is it obvious that the family doesn't want the house sold? Makes no sense to me. I see this all the time - An emotional attachment to a non-living thing. That nobody really wants. But they can't let it go. Why?

Besides that, the house is your aunt's asset. Why shouldn't it be sold to provide for her care? If someone in the family really want that house, let them buy it now. Otherwise, it just ends up being a controversial burden to the family once your aunt is gone.

State will take it? Well, why shouldn't they if the state (that is, the citizens of the state) ends up having to pay to provide for your aunt's care?

I was talking to a coworker a couple weeks ago about that same "look back" that you mentioned. He said it was more like 5 years if I remember. He and his mom and dad moved things around before his dad passed and they were good with the "look back" time. When it came time for his mother to go into a home. Turns out on her they only wanted 3 months worth of bank statements.

I guess the fact that the house was hand built by my immigrant grandfather and has been in the family 110 years isn't enough of a reason to want to keep it??

I'm with Steve [TN] on this: "the house is your aunt's asset. Why shouldn't it be sold to provide for her care?"

Amen. For the state to come and "take" her house, it is because the state (i.e. the taxpayers) have paid for her care on her behalf because she cannot afford it herself via Medicaid or some other tax payer funded program. There is no reason to expect others to pay for her care while you get to keep the house. To you, it is a dear memory. To the rest of us, it's a house. If you wish to keep the dear memory AND have care for you Aunt, then you get to purchase the house and give your Aunt the money to help pay for her care.

I think the US taxpayers are very generous, and it speaks well for our society that we provide a minimal level of care vs. throwing someone out on the street or leaving them to get sick and die alone in a cold house with no utilities. In return, it is reasonable for those tax payers to receive some of their money back.

Does that make sense?

People will do what they do. I don't judge them, nor do I judge you Blue, but I do judge the IDEA that the state (i.e. you, me, all other tax payers) is somehow being unfair by attempting to recoup some of the money we donate to anyone to provide for indigent care.

I suggest consulting with a different Elder Care attorney than the one you talked to so far to find legal ways to fund care for your aunt while preserving as much of her estate as possible. What this other attorney advised you to do is to commit fraud, and if/when the state comes back they can undo the transaction and smack you with huge penalties, and I believe jail time is also a possibility. Not sure on that, but what you could do is tell the attorney who told you to do the Quit Claim to write up his opinion of that on paper, including the reasoning, and to sign, date, and present it as his professional legal advice. My guess is he will know that what he said is illegal, and he won't do it because then it's his butt hanging in the wind when the deal goes bad.

Hiring 4 hours a day of meal prep, cleaning, companionship help shouldn’t cost much. I would go that route, it will address the issue of food and water consumption, also her meds may be taken as prescribed. You can then better evaluate what her needs are.

Blue of IL, It's not clear IF the attorney that set-up your aunts trust is the one that told you, look back is 10 years. IF the attorney told you that then he's wrong OR if others have told you that they are wrong, it's 5 years.

Look back is 5 years. That's IF your aunt goes to a nursing home and now medicare will takes over her care and her money. However, medicare is the same as other insurances. IF your aunt goes to the hospital and needs rehab they will keep her in a nursing home rehab and them she will go home OR go to an assisted living facility.

Your aunt can not live alone at home an assisted living facility is a consideration and you pay per month. Some homes could start at $2,500 go up to $7,000 or more depending on the level of care a person is receiving.

That being said the best place for a person to be cared for is at home. You may have to move in with your aunt and oversee her care.

Be cautious of the Assisted Living Facility you choose and the care they give. The same is true for Nursing Homes.

Double check the Trust creation to see when it was done.

Your aunt can place the house in your name but there is the 5 year look back.

You can move in with your aunt and care for her. Plus bring in home care for her.

Have blood work done on your aunt to check her sugar levels and salt levels can be an issue making her mind fuzzy. Or she does have forgetful moments age related or she my have dementia or alzheimer's.

I have read that the look back period is 5 years.

If the house is important to you, why don't you purchase it from her, and have her rent it from you. That way, she had the $$$, and it is all above-board.

Charlie, well thanks for the vote on (most) of my thoughts.... (wink)

I agree we will need to come up with some news strategies going forward. Blue's Aunt's predicament is a warning sign of things to come.

The Boomers retiring is an unprecedented event in this history of our country, and it will strain the resources our nation has to the breaking point if things are left "as is." But add 30 years and their DYING will truly be an epic event that could finish off this struggling nation.

I have looked at end of life care in other countries. Medcially and compassionately, there are many better places than the USA to die, especially if one has no money. But seniors are reluctant to leave family, friends, church, social groups, and the familiaritiy of a nation whose laws (and language) they have known all of their lives.

So what are we to do?

I don't know. I'm not a politician so I do not presume to tell others I know how to run their lives better than they do. But what I do think will need to happen are a few of the following:

1) Families need to step up when it comes to talking about elder care and end of life issues, and they'll need to step up EARLIER than they do now. How many folks wait util relatives are almost ready to go into a nursing home before discussing end of life care issues? I started talking to my parents about it shortly after they named me as the executor to their estate about 5 years ago (when they were early 70s). Both are still in relatively good health and we have a good relationship, so I insisted on talking about it and they were very receptive. We have a good plan going forward.

2) Families need to have a plan for grandma, and grandpa, and whoever if they have limited financial means. It's just "the right thing to do" to support our loved ones as best we can. I do not think we should have nationalized end of life care plans, simply because I have seen how inept our Govt is at manage so many other nationalized plans. Other cultures (Hispanic culture is a good example based on what I've seen) are generally more interested in providing family care to their elders than North Americans of European stock are. Maybe the old world has a better system, maybe not. We can look at it, but don't expect it to change over night. So make plans for your family now as best you can, and cross fingers that some day it gets better. Govt could help us by reducing costly licensing and unnecessary regulations for some aspects of Elder care. Yes, we must license and have oversight where absolutely necessary, but otherwise allow people to hire and fire whom they choose, free of the ever present threat of million $ lawsuits. And allow insurance companies to PAY for those caregivers without threats of lawsuits if the family signs off on the known risks and says they're willing to take on the responsibility.

3) Communities will need to be better designed to extend stay-at-home living which lengthens the amount of time a person's assets can last them before they have to seek professional living assistance. How many folks spend a ton to go into nursing facilities simply because there's no one to help do their laundry or the grocery store is too far away and they cannot drive?

4) Older folks need to be more willing to change lifestyle to avoid costly end of life issues. We all know the chain smoker 70 year old who feels it is their right to huff and puff their way to the grave and while on the way demands round the clock medical care due to developing emphysema. Or what about the person who sits around watching TV all day and weighs 400 lbs and can't be moved without 6 nurses? C'mon folks....get up on the feet and get to moving around 5 times a week.

Bottom line is we need some changes, and I see them needed at ALL levels. Govt, city, family, and individual. When we're all working together, it helps us succeed.

Well, it is perfectly legal to shelter your assets, fund trusts and pass down the family homestead. Just as it is legal to take certain tax deductions. If you chose not to do this, that is up to you. But, I don't disagree with using whatever is legal to save my money from going to the government and maybe getting the government to pay something for me since I never asked or took anything before. Some people seem to take all their lives.

According to the lawyers that set up the irrevocable trust we have, it is a 5 year look back. Since you already have the trust established, it might be easier to quit claim it to the trust (depending on who the beneficiaries are). I also understand there is a last minute option, that might get you fined, but not lose everything, but I don't know the details. A friend was dealing with this issue.

It is erroneous to believe that the state deserves proceeds from this home.

The job of the state is to protect its citizens, however the state chooses to allow 16,000 dollar a month nursing home stays. The state not only sanctions this behavior it licenses it and condones it.

A small group benefits and enriches themselves by taking advantage of the elderly.

That the accused assisted or participated in the commission of the underlying substantive offense. Aiding and Abetting.

So-- I didn't quite catch, but I did see--

"House has been in the family 110 years and for obvious reasons we don't want it sold."

So, fast-forward 15 or 20 years in the future. What function is the house serving? Who is it useful to? Who's living there?

It's easy to find a place for heirlooms like "the family Bible" or "the old Civil War clock from g-g-g-grandpa". But for things like houses, you have practical considerations-- like, is the residence close enough to a specific person's job to be lived in? Does it have enough bedrooms to suit a specific person's lifestyle? And so on.

The easiest thing would be for the house to be sold for full market value to a relative who is able to (a) allow your aunt to continue living there as long as she can, but (b) has a use for the house. So that way, when Medicaid or whatever asks, "Have you disposed of any assets in the last five years?" you can point to, "Yes, the house was sold to Cousin Andrew for $100,000, and here's a $100,000 deposit in Aunt's bank account, and, as you can see from this documentation, the FMV is $100,000." And that $100,000 goes to your aunt's upkeep, and keeps her off Medicaid for as long as it can.

My first-gen great-grandfather built a house with his own hands. It was a little 2/1 where my great-grandparents, grandma, mom, two uncles, and an aunt lived while my grandfather served in Korea. After both her parents passed away, my grandmother inherited it-- even though it was about 3 hours away, and across a state line, and *gasp* in New Jersey. It's been a rental for the last 20+ years. Who knows what will happen to it after my grandparents pass away-- because my aunts and uncles are all (a) 3 hours away, and (b) in another state.

Thanks for all that gave helpful advice.

I went over the trust. I will check to see that the house is in the trust (the deed should be recorded in the trust's name as owner...yes?). The trust was made in 2004, so good there.

My aunt has been very forward thinking all along. Her funeral was arranged long ago, down to the music she wants and everything is paid for already.

I disagree with a lot of the others. I dont think this country does enough for older people. A lot of other countries do so much better.

And should one person have to donate a house to the state but another person without one does not.

Most nursing homes are terriable unless a family member is watching.

Here they do get inspected. But they are told when the inspectors are coming. And I know of a few that actually double the staff just for the day of inspection.

To much money is spend for single moms that have way more children than they can afford.

These moms do have options. Go get a second job if they cant afford it. Or dont have children and make them suffer without a decent life. But even the children at least have a chance of looking forward to growing older an making a good life for themselves.

Older people in poor health do not have ANY options. And nothing to look forward to.

And leaving this world should be made as peaceful and comfortable as possible.

Are you kidding me a REVERSE MORTGAGE!!!

The WORST financial option for elderly folks to make on their home.

Number One I know of several folks who had been given the reverse mortgage option and they were being given about 40% of the homes value. Are you kidding me??? The elderly folks are better off to get their house sold and live of the money by renting at that point.

An Emotional Bridge (many) will cross.

I don't think we need to be telling Blue why she should not want to keep the home. That is the family decision, right or wrong. No one is being burdened with this house, and I assume it is not required to be "in the family" forever. But at this time, they don't want to sell. Fine. A reverse mortgage is not going to protect that asset.

Blue, you want the deed filed in the trusts name, you also want your aunt to have "life estate". She has the right to live there all her life. That is her protection, the trustee cannot sell the home if she is living there.

Life Estate planners/attorneys? Trust creations.

Real Estate attorneys?

They are two different factors. Lets hope the Trust was created properly for your aunt. Consider talking to another trust attorney and maybe have him or her look at the trust.

Real estate attorney may not give proper tax burden advice and could undo the trust so be careful.

Linda of NY someone mention a reverse mortgage and thats a poor financial choice.

Changing the deed to a life estate is an issue due to inheritance taxes involved.

The trust is the best option however hope it was done correctly.

Blues best option is to keep her aunt at home and care for her. This will be a major life change for Blue and bring in care givers in Blues Aunts home.

House IS deeded in the trust, I checked today.

She is still pretty sound, just her short term memory is shot.

I live extremely close by (walking distance). My sister is within 2 miles an hour Cousin her other niece is about 15 minutes away. Our cousin is a retired nurse so she is in charge of the doctor visits etc. and is extremely good about it and all it has been for the last six or seven years.

I honestly have no intention of moving in with her, ever. I will do everything in my power to keep her home as long as possible, though.

Right now she has help two hours of the morning and two hours in the evening. She's had a housekeeper for a couple of years and she's had someone taking care of the yard for probably 25 years. She has her own little Handyman but she consults with me before she calls him.

Even before her problems I probably see her three times a week. Her neighbor is also very watchful. They share the paper in the morning, and she brings her over anything she cooks.

She thrives on social situations so even if she's feeling bad, she will perk right up if someone visits.

The women that are helping our from a local churches out reach. They carry insurance etc. They also have an adult daycare that is very reasonably priced and they feed them lunch. We're going to try to get her to go there next week for a few hours, see if she likes it. If we needed to, that helping women can take her there after their shift.

What is her monthly income? How much in the bank? People go downhill fast in nursing homes.

If she goes on medicare they will take all funds over about $2,500 (hence the term spend down of assets). She wil get $100 for commisary.

Yes, they WILL take the house. Do not sell or transfer it. They will unwind it and sue you. The whole thing is very hard to get info about. Plus, a lot of people slip through cracks and are not forced to repay the funds. If it is in a trust and the trust isn't in her name it might slide by, or not.

This is the 5th summer since my mother died. We cared for her at home until we just couldn't do it, even with a full time caregiver.

You can probably get a live in for $2,000. Plus another $1,000 for a relief.

The last 18 months of her life I spent about $100,000 out of pocket. I'm glad I could do it. We had a private duty full time nurse at her asisted living. Later at the hospice the last few months, they provided a 24 hr caregiver for an extra $1,500 a month. The aide actually slept on the sofa next to my mom's bed to carry her to the bathroom at night.

Most of these facilities are beyond horrible. The first one I thought was great, private apts (it was a former Holiday Inn) they had a pool and ice sculptures on the dinner buffet. We bought a scooter for her to ride around on after she couldn't walk. But as my mom's needs increased the staff didn't want to be bothered.

I looked at probably ten places to move her, ALL were hellholes. I finally found a six pack house, staffed by a family of nurses. They were wonderful for her last 5 months.

Sadly most old people do not have the support my mother had. We were there nearly every day, and even if I wasn't there I had the caregiver to take her to meals and such. Most of the folks had nobody. No visitors, nothing, just waiting to die. I would never want to go that way.

Figure on about $60,000 a year cash outlay for a nursing home, or about $45,000 for home care -IF you can find reliable help. Old people can get difficult and caregivers quit. (Or rob you.)

Blue it sounds like you have it worked out with yourself and family keeping your aunt in her house, The BEST PLACE for her!!!

HOWEVER, IF she needs to go to a nursing home the look back will occur.

You want to prevent the nursing home from occurring and grandpas house getting sold and then theres money needed to take care of your aunt. Your aunt could live to be in her 100's and money goes fast for elder care.

Blue of IL, In your original post you mentioned: "I am POA, an "owner" on her main checking acct, Executor, and will inherit the (grandpa's) house. All of the family is aware of all of this."

In your later post you mentioned: "I honestly have no intention of moving in with her, ever. I will do everything in my power to keep her home as long as possible, though."

Here in lines the problem I understand your concern about Grandpa's house. HOWEVER, if you get to a point that you feel its not possible to keep her in her home. AND if you or your cousin the Nurse has her health care proxy / Medical POA and now you take over all your aunts decision making. You may have to give up some things to keep her in her home. Keeping her in her home is a lot of responsibility and in the future if this happens KUDOS to you. But you may have to give up somethings and move in with her to help her IF she gets to a point of total care.

We all pray this never happens unfortunately it does and the money drain placing someone in an assisted living facility is a major financial concern. AND its very emotional for family and the family care giver. Some family members can not deal with seeing a family member with Dementia or Alzheimers nor can they care for them.

MORE of a CONCERN is the quality of care at a nursing home. And I really do not know how some of these DUMPS stay in business. Forget the money drain the quality of care is horrible.

My point is if your aunt is in a sound mind to make changes you may want to talk to an accountant and attorney with you and your aunt. She can transfer the house to you but what are the tax issues for you. AND what is the look back time frame. Also if your aunt does the transfer to you will anyone challenge the transfer. I am guessing the POA has not been activated yet. I understand the entire family knows you are to get the house HOWEVER family can get bent when money changes hands. And yes the transfer of real estate from your aunt to you would be a form of money changing hands.

Find out from an accountant and attorney what the pros and cons are to transfer the house to you NOW and you and your aunt talk about it, then decide if you should do it. Let the chips fall where they may on the look back issue IF your aunt goes to a skill nursing facility in the future,

This is not a fun thing to deal with but its extremely important before your aunts memory is taken by Dementia or Alzheimers. And we hope this does not happen, she has short term memory age related.

It is more difficult when so many family members are living so close to the property that Grandpa built. The emotional concerns are extremely high. IF you and the family were living in other states it may not be such an issues. Living so close does have an attachment PLUS a lot of memories were created at Granda's house. Blue remember one thing and your cousins remember; if it comes to the house being taken due to your aunt needing nursing home care. The look back grab!!! The memories will NEVER be taken from you of the good times in the house with grandpa and family. Great Memories!!!

Another great idea is make a memory book of pictures for your aunt. You and your cousins get together at your aunts Saturday afternoon or Sunday you all prepare potluck dinner for your aunt and have dinner with her. Bring pictures and make an album for her. This will help with her memory. AND if one day your Aunt tells you the sky is orange run with it don't challenge her or correct her. Yes Auntie it is a beautiful shade of orange!!!

Blue,

My sympathies. We’ll all be like Auntie someday. Good you are there.

My limited experience with this: plan, but be slow to make big changes. Nature and time made the choices for my parents. Their changes came quicker than we anticipated, thus solving these dilemas.

Or the answer becomes obvious when something changes.

BRAD

PS thinking...

Buy the house, auntie now has cash to pay for care.

You inherit whatever cash remains at her death.

Turns a hard asset in liquid asset amd keeps the house in the fam.