I've encountered a first in my experience with tax lien purchases. A little background to help establish what's going on.

We bought a lien on a house back in Aug 2017. Missouri has a 1 year redemption. A few days ago I get copied on a mailing from the City threatening the owner to issue their own lien on the property due to trash nuisance. I've had experience with these before: they contract out the work and it costs a friggin' ton ($1000 or more) to clean up some basic stuff. Went by the house....probably $200 for a regular trash hauler to "fix" the issue.

So I went hunting for the owners to see if I could buy the place off of him to avoid the extra expense and get busy with this property sooner. He is dead. Found his brother though, the one whom the city mailed the nuisance notice to. Courtesy of Phone Search Free (thanks, NE!). Sent a letter: "I want to buy your house, call me!"

He CALLED!

So I try to offer him cash to sign over his ownership.

He says he doesn't own the place, never has owned the place, doesn't want any part of it.

YAY! I think....easy pickings.

I offer him cash to sign a Quit Claim.

Nope, he's not interested.

Huh? But I thought you didn't want the property or anything to do with it?

He says he doesn't.

Okay, so how about I send you some money and you sign the Quit Claim.

He says he doesn't own the house and doesn't want any part of it....yadda yadda. Basically repeated himself.

This goes on for about 10 minutes, round in circles. I try everything I can to get him to just let me send him a quit claim. I offer to pay for his lawyer to review it and okay it. I offer to get the city to stop annoying him with letters. I offer cash just to let me buy out whatever interest he does or doesn't have.

Nothing get thru his head. He keeps circling back to being pissed at the city, and every offer I can think of to try to resolve this gets rejected. And every sentence ends with, "He knows his rights."

I ask what are those rights?

That it's not his property. He says he owns other rentals. He's well off and doesn't need my money.

I say, "wouldn't having some extra money help with your rentals?"

"No" he says, "I don't need any money, I'm well off and I know my rights."

*sigh..... It's seriously like talking to a brick wall. I finally told him I didn't want to waste his time but that I might check back later to see if he changes his mind and to keep me in mind if he'd like to talk more. Ended the call amicably, I think.

Any advice? This is the most illogical "seller" I have ever met.

Even though the city mailed the notice to his brother, does his brother have any rights or claims to the house or is he just over seeing the estate?

When sellers plant their feet or pretend to be big with phrases like "I know my rights", I know the prey isn't quite dead yet, so I keep circling. Know what I mean?

Make sure he's even the right person to deal with in regards to this. He might not understand "quit Claim", so he's locking up on you. If the original owner died, check with his estate attorney and get on his radar. If he has any dealings with the brother, he may be able to persuade him more than you can.

ME is right.

Either this guy is just plain stupid or he's up to something.

I've had success in the past by using the tactic of applying more pressure.

Cheap house, seller died 2 years ago. Estate has not been probated according to brother.

List of heirs... With an S... Try another on the list?

I don't think some of you do not understand the position I am in. Will try to clarify...

The more complaints I make to the city, the more work they do using their ultra expensive contractors, and then I have to pay to bill to get clear title to the property. (Richard)

And if I walk away (GKARL), I'm out the $4500 I have into the lien.

NE, now you're starting to sound like him a bit... (wink)

I have NOT bought the property. I have bought a LIEN on the property. Yes, it will become mind in late Aug 2018 if no one redeems it and I do all my "stuff".

And yes, I explained all that to him. He thought the same as you...that I had already "bought it". So I explained to him what I just explained to you.

He didn't care. As mentioned to plenty, I need to soften him up a bit and receive some signs that he's willing to talk before driving to Kansas City (7 hours round trip) just to talk to a brick wall who may or may not show up.

Have you made clear “why” you need the quit claim signed?

You may do better by writing him, lay it all out for him. He doesn’t understand, and without understanding, the safe answer is no.

If you clean up the trash on your dime, is it even worth negotiating with him? Why not wait for the time to expire?

Sid, you might have your attorney make a caller or write him a letter and explain the situation to him and that you are trying to clear up the title work.

Ask him what he wants?

Is this not what Ya signed up for ? (Waiting Game)

Ride out the next 4 Months.

The Clock is Ticking.

Ya cant always get what Ya want. (Or when Ya want it)

This Guy is a Better Player than you think

and He is Not Willing to Show His Hand. (Is He Bluffing?)

You could always fly out your consigliere to negotiate with him and if it doesn't go as planned, he could always wake up with a horse head in his bed.

Haha

At least the drive up to KC is nicer than it used to be. I did the back roads to get up there from Springfield way too many times in the late 1980s.

I think I'd send someone over there to pick up all the trash, and spend the $200 in order to avoid being stuck with a bill for $1000 once you can get the title work done in August.

Small estates don't have to be probated in MO, if there are no assets.

Went through that in 2013 with someone who owed around $100K, and owned basically nothing. Just personal belongings. The car was finally repo'd once I convinced Ford Credit to send someone to come get it. She had written a will, but the executor was dead,her condo had been sold previously, and the car was to be left to me, but she owed as much as it was worth. She owned some vacant land, but only 7 acres, and she didn't have deeded access to get to it. I let the guy who owned the property on three sides know it would be in a tax sale in a couple of years. I knew they wanted it.

So, hopefully the title search turns up SOMEONE other than this brother. If not, I'd simply send a junker over to clean it up, and look forward to August when you can do the quiet title action on in.

If he's sensitive about "his rights" then the last thing I would do is get a lawyer to contact him. That will just drive him further into his corner. You're trying to convince him that a quit claim deed does not imply ownership. It just removes any claim of ownership.

It's only a few months. If the house is vacant, have your guys go and remove trash and mow the weeds a couple of times and wait it out.

LOVE the idea of filing your own lien on the property for the yard work and clean up! Can you do that?

Again, thanks to all who are helping. I realize I have not helped you enough...forgot to mention the property is currently OCCUPIED (squatters is my guess, or tenants who were never evicted before past LL died). So if I 'clean out' the house, that includes getting rid of them....or else I probably get sued for trespassing and throwing away all of their "treasures."

I may have just stepped into a pile of doo-doo on this one. Could be one of the expensive lessons we hear about (i.e. S i d is getting WALLET TRAINED!)

Once, we had to bring a Motion to Quiet Title when someone was playing reindeer games with a house we'd bought. They blustered and bullied, but didn't actually file anything to assert their claim. So we filed something to assert our claim.

Suppose you sit quietly for 4 months, run the clock out, and it's yours. But you're worried about heirs popping up a few years later and trying to arm-wrestle you for a property you've improved.

# 22, yes, that's what I'm looking for....an "angle" that interests him. I'm going to check back in a week and see if he's changed his mind. I'll ask him if there's "anything I can do to help him change his mind." Right now, I think he's just upset with the city. Maybe in a week he'll be in a better mood to talk. I've got until April 10th before the City goes and does their work.

The $1,000 clean up lien would be low on my list of worries with this. You can always go Dave Ramsey on them and offer a pay off in full for a discount or send them $15 a month if they refuse.

Interesting strategy proposal, NE. I would do it, except before I get title from the Collector I have to clear off all city liens. They attach them to the property as special tax assessments or "special tax" bills due at year's end. And if I DON'T clear them, I don't get title, AND I lose any interest in the property. However, you have inspired me to check one thing...whether or not any CURRENT liens have to paid, or if they only come due at year's end. Thanks for the thoughts.

I wonder if that puts the city in any conflict of interest position. If they know the liens have to be paid and the property is in a tax sale situation, it is in their best interest to pile on as many liens as possible.

Sid of MO, If I am reading it correctly this brother may not be the one that has any interest in the property. The owner dies, who are the heirs? The brother many not have a will and now there are MULTIPLE heirs and no one will talk to each other,

SO first important part is to talk with the heirs that have an interest in the property.

The brother may not have ZIP in the property. Then again he may be one of many heirs to the property.

S i d

Remember a little while back I talked to you about if City liens are enforceable.

At that time I talked to our attorney buddy, Chris, and ask him a few questions. He had just returned from his two weeks military training and was swamped with work. However he said he would be interested in looking into it if I would send him some more information.

This might be a time to look into pursuing that idea. I have another friend in Southeast Missouri who has shown interest in looking into this situation about if city tax liens are enforceable.

I have done a little reconsideration if I want to go that route or not. It's one of those things where you win the battle but lose the war.

I am in Southeast Missouri right now but planning on coming back to spfld for our Thursday night meeting. We might talk about this a little bit if you are interested.

Sorry about getting you into these situations with that cheap tax class you signed up for. Ha ha

So, have you contact the existing tenants/squatters at all? I think it is odd that you don't know if they are tenants, ex-tenants, or squatters. Why haven't you gone and talked to them to ask who they are? I'd flat out tell them that you're buying the property (since you kinda are basically) and want to start making arrangements with them. Ask if they are paying anyone rent right now or have just lived there for free since their landlord died.

Heck, tell them that you're going to send over some cleanup people to get rid of the garbage. Spend that $200 to save yourself $1000 down the road.

I don't see why you are putting all this effort into a guy that doesn't think he has any legal right to the property anyhow. He's clearly not going to sign anything if he thinks he doesn't have any rights to it anyhow. It just seems like you've put in a LOT of effort working on this guy that won't work with you -- but very little on the property itself and figuring out who the heck is in it right now.

I'm curious if the dead LL didn't tell these tenants they could have the house when he died? The brother says no interest.

When you did your drive by, before the tax sale was anyone living there?

How do you know they are squatters?

I know lots of questions but it's the only way I can figure things out.

I did something like this 2 years ago, replaced roof after cutting down tree that rubbed the roof off, I have a tenant that pays below market it needs a interior replumbing job but the bandaids are holding now and they are trying to purchase, so I am sitting still.

this comes to mind. "He who cares least wins".

One reason we decided in 86 to never try to buy property occupied by anyone or owned by anyone except the foreclosure people.

Sid! You're killing us! :)

Come back with more details! I am very curious about the people that are CURRENTLY in there. Have you spoken with them? See my post above (and others).

Good luck!

- John...