I’ve said myself and other people have said that tradesmen will be the doctors and lawyers of the future. I was a little surprised the other day on another thread when I read that Brad 20,000 had some sticker shock from some of the quotes he got on recent bids for repairs on his investment properties. Knowing how hard it is to find people to do competent work for you and knowing how expensive it is, where do you see the future of maintenance heading as it comes to getting your properties repaired? Especially for people who are looking to hire everything out.

Yeah, it's definitely a challenge - as a little fish in the sea.

I'll need significantly more income to hire out everything.

I can do most things myself, and still enjoy it. Except HVAC and major electrical.

With things rehabbed like new before occupancy, I shouldn't need much - but stuff happens.

I want to travel & not always be available on short notice.

My greatest concern on this topic is WHO I will be able to call to take care of things for me. My handyman can do some basic stuff. My HVAC guy is approaching retirement, so is the plumber - he's already part time & doesn't do things he doesn't enjoy. My electrician already retired a couple years ago.

Finding substitutes / replacements for these guys is the challenge.

Used to be I could call Ted, ask him to go over & see why lights are blinking. He would call the tenant, go fix it, send me the bill. He did good work, was trustworthy, and fairly priced. "Ted" doesn't seem to exist any more : (

I'd like to find younger guys (younger than me), so I won't have the retirement issue again. But, you know, not many young folks getting into the trades (Sigh....)

This generation was taught they'd make a living keyboarding or using their thumbs. Heck of a lot easier than roofing in July, digging ditches, lugging heavy tools, equipment/machinery around.

Physical work is anathema to the under 35 set. They associate it with being ill educated. HA! Finding out that a degree in gender studies isn't worth the paper it is electronically printed on.

"tradesmen will be the doctors and lawyers of the future."

I figure doctors will continue to make $250-$500K.

Lawyers... $150-$300K.

Tradesmen...$80-$125K.

It's still good money and probably feels better in some ways.

However, NE... consider that the tradesmen who make the big bucks will follow the same "hire it out" concept as the landlord who manages the empire: he will hire people to do the actual work while he focuses on providing the maximum value he can by making strategic decisions and signing big contracts.

Consider the most successful plumbing, HVAC, and electrical companies in your town. It's the guys who "hire it done" running the show and pulling in $500K per year. They have crews of 10-50 guys in the field installing toilets and running circuits. He pays them $25 - $35/hour and charges the customer $100-$125/hour. His profit goes through the roof when he takes the tools out of his truck and gives them to other guys in company trucks.

The solo plumber realizes he can only change out one toilet at a time... his maximum earning potential is $100-$125/hour. But if he broadens his vision, he realizes he can hire 10 guys and have 10 toilets being changed at the same time, and he takes a 30% cut of $100-$125/hour...

10 guys * $100/hour * 30% = $300/hour compared to Mr. Solo Plumbing man who makes $125/hour.

There is not much difference between the owners of a trade company than a landlord. Their trade is their product. The houses are the landlord's product. The folks who make the most money don't do the grunt work: they hire others to do it for them and focus on strategy and vision to grow the empire.

I do the same thing. I can only repair / paint/ upgrade one rental at a time, but I can pay other guys to do it for me. Meanwhile, instead of having 12 properties appreciating for me, I have 54. Let's pretend for the sake of argument that each property unit has an average value of $100,000.

12 units * $100,000 * 3% annual appreciation = $36,000.

54 units * $100,000 * 3% annual appreciation = $162,000.

My units are like my employees. They multiply my wealth beyond what I can if I DIY.

Your thoughts on this?

NE, I think that maintenance or the lack thereof has been a huge societal issue for 30+ years. Consumers demand cheap, throwaway goods and aren’t interested in buying quality goods and maintaining/repairing them. Cutting corners is the only way to achieve cheap.

This mindset has made real wealth creation impossible. Capital goods were intended to last a lifetime….it is a big difference maker in the viability of a business when capital goods must be replaced.

In our realm of rental property, 40 year old houses are not always worth fixing. Not from water , wind or fire damage , but from being made of throw away components, bad floor plan and crummy neighborhood, and corner cutting in construction.

We in USA are in a race to the bottom, we are fast becoming a third world country. Poor people never did have tools and knowledge to repair, now with the middle class remnant fast disappearing learning to live with broken systems is the new norm.

Think about the solutions we read here on the forum; often the solution is to stop providing central air, stop providing refrigerators, stop providing ranges, try to figure a way to profit from flop houses. Good, well maintained properties don’t flourish when investors thoughts are focused on cheap.

I believe it is a cyclical problem. It is irritated by a couple of other cyclical processes.

The first subcycle is the DIY crowd. It is and always has been cyclical. In the 1950's it was made popular by the magazine Popular Mechanics. By the 1960's it was on the decline. Then in the 1980's by the TV show "This Old House" which started in the late 1970's and later "Hometime" which came along in the 1980's, in addition to this many High Schools incorporated a Vo-Tech school with a few trades and had shop classes. By the 90's and early 2000's it was again out of vogue, many Vo-Tech programs closed and shop classes were too risky for the schools. Then along came Youtube in the 2010's which allowed on-demand videos' on how to fix anything. There was somewhat of a resurgence. But it really hasn't taken off yet.

Second, is a little longer trend. It started in the 1970's (maybe even '60's) when every good middle income suburban family pushed their kids to go to college. Over the next 20+ years this expanded into every family. Kids who barely passed in HS were now going to college racking up huge debt. Most didn't equate the importance of choosing a degree plan to the likely paycheck you would be receiving. That expensive College degree in dance isn't going to help you reach financial freedom. In the last 5-10 years I believe this trend is starting to retreat.

So, kids that won't really be successful in College are now being given more choices that include things like going into the trades. DIY is starting to rebound (where many handyment come from). High Schools are beginning to bring back VO-Tech programs. Our local school district just retreaded an old shopping mall into a huge new Vo-Tech school with a program for nearly every trade. The local community college that closed their trades options are in the process of reopening it after an uptick that started during the pandemic with the truck driving program, they have more students enrolled in the HVAC program this year than in the last 20. Add to that an insurgence of first generation immigrants that aren't afraid to get dirty and I believe the tide will turn in the next few years. It's just going to take a handful of years for these changes to make a difference.

NE, what you're telling me is that even a "goofball" as you call him knows that DIYing everything makes no sense. You said his profits are going through the roof, and the reason is that he hires out work to grunts and focuses on the big stuff where his value is optimized! Smart guy! We all should be as smart as this goofball.

What are guys like him doing to my profits? Multiplying them. See my example above about how having 54 units vs. 12 makes a world of difference. Your thoughts on that... specifically?

We might never come to agreement on which is the "preferred way" since we have different preferences, and I respect that. I don't hire out everything that I probably should either, but I'm working on getting better at it. But preferences aside, there's no denying the math. The numbers do not lie, and they do not care about our preferences.

Were you at the Convention when Jeffrey (Mr. Landlord) talked about the Levels of landlording? Good stuff. I'm at around a 4 out of 5. Still need to get some systems onto checklists and delegate, but this year so far I've outsourced my bi-annual maintenance inspections and some accounting tasks, so I'm drawing ever closer to the day where all I do is manage the managers, hunt the next deal, and work on improving procedures.

Sid said "They have crews of 10-50 guys in the field installing toilets and running circuits. He pays them $25 - $35/hour and charges the customer $100-$125/hour."

There once was a time when a tool and die specialist had to know how to use there hands in manufacturing a product. Today they are computer operators first and foremost.

There was also a time when you actually repaired your TV - instead you toss it out (probably illegally) and pick up another replacement.

There were some awesome plumbing name brands that were quality - but that too has been watered down when you buy these products from a box store. Those steel components are now plastic.

So I can't answer about the balance of between craftsman and the amount of labor a landlord should do. Heck yesterday, I was helping an excavator installing a new water line at one of my places. That three hours of work saved me $1,000 and I didn't have much scheduled for that day. Would I do that routinely - absolutely not.

I expect the national average for annual maintenance to increase from the 6% it is now towards maybe 8% as craftsman deserve the money that they have earned. I ma glad to see a blue collar person getting a little bit more respect in society. Now is the time to raise your rents to reflect the changes in expenses that occur on a national level.

The trades are definitely dieing. Most young people don't want to work with their hands.

My approach is to do EVERYTHING I can to my properties now, before my plumber, electrician, etc. retire. Replace water lines with pex, galvanized drain lines with pvc, new roofs, windows, etc. Solid doors. Quality hardware. New mixer valves, shut-off valves, etc. Run extra circuits. Replace outlets and switches. That way when I have to pay a handyman $60/hr to switch out a faucet, it won't be death by a thousand cuts.

My other prediction is that we'll get skilled tradesmen flooding in from south of the border. Heck, they're already here. Go look at a Pulte or Ryan Homes development. I guarantee you the guys finishing drywall or concrete don't have English as their first language.

For landlords, who are looking to hire most of the work out, here's where I believe the future is going for landlords who are looking to grow their portfolio or their wealth.

More and more of these landlords will hire one, two, or three maintenance techs as actual employees as part of their staff (with landlord becoming less dependent on independent contractors) and pay the techs a set weekly or monthly amount.

Something we've noticed: tenants are very quick to report an issue without first checking basic issues like a tripped breaker (nor do they even know how to check or properly flip a breaker. Keeping meaning to print out a graphic showing them how to paste inside the box! Add to list of "To Do's") Or if the thermostat is set to FAN ON instead of AUTO "The heat won't turn off..."

We have a few tenants that are handy, capable guys and when they call we know they've done the basic troubleshooting first.

By the way, you may say: It is not easy to find competent maintenance techs who would be willing to work part time. And you would be right.

+1 to what Jeffrey said.

Sisco, one thing I almost always hire out is appliance repair. I’m running into a similar situation that you mentioned that’s going to require adapting how I handle appliances. I’ve had 3 guys over the years that handled appliances and did so quickly. 2 retired and the other died. I’m on to a 4th one now. They are much younger than the other folks I used in the past and to a degree, it shows. The old guys would have the appliances fixed pretty quick. This new crew took 5 weeks for a coin-op washer repair in a 6 unit and now we’re looking at 3 weeks for a belt for a transmission for a different washer.

First repair was over $400. I don’t have the bill for this new project yet, but I’m guessing it’ll be $250-$300. At that point, I’m half way to the cost of a new one.

At what point does it become worth it to just stock one of every appliance and swap them out myself with a couple grunts vs repairing them? I do the work, but it’s done in hours, not weeks. I can’t let a tenant go weeks without a fridge and being I’m rural, not really anyone else to call.

I want to hire people. They either don't exist, aren't qualified or demand more than a small timer can afford.

Guy that used to work for me will cover anything while I am at the con and the bootcamp. He is just so booked already I can't rely on him for many emergency runs.

I went a clients apartment building in West Hollywood around 2000. I knocked on the tenants door and a Russian couple answered the door. To me it looked like they were on Section 8. So I asked the forbidden questions, "HOW DO YOU PAY YOUR RENT"?

a) You pay all of the rent yourself without any government assistance?

b) You are no Section 8

c) You receive income from a pension, social security or retirement account?

The tenants respond, "NON of your business".

I respond that here in this area if I work for anyone who receives government assistance, I have to provide safety literature.

A few thoughts...

The availability of handypersons has been declining over the past 10? years, then took a big hit with the pandemic with free money.

The older retired tinkerers stayed home and locally the factories had to start aggressive hiring tactics - higher wages, benefits, signing bonuses, no drug testing, poor work history, etc. If they breathe they are hired.

So the "marginal" people that could not qualify for good solid factory jobs were all "contractors". Many worked out fine for us.

At a recent invitation only discussion group the question about hiring was posed and the OVERWHELMING response was "Hire Mexicans". Our Mexican roofer has 5 crews and gets our houses done in one day.

My best workers added over the past 2 years have been Mexican.

When we started we shared a handyman with another LL. Between the two of us we kept the guy busy and paid.

I have toyed with the idea of our LL association hiring a tech and members could schedule a day.

Like Sisco stated, materials a flimsier and break easier so I demand tougher stuff with the idea I am keeping this property for the next 20 years -

no carpet,

washable vinyl floors,

Real wood cabinets,

granite tops even in affordable homes because they are tougher,

Pfister faucets that never need a call back,

Uponor pex for no more frozen repairs,

remove appliances or rent them for additional income.

Biggie that has freed us up: Res is responsible for minor repairs. We care for the roof and HVAC.

We leave touch up paint at each home for the res to touch up.

Lease and procedures to get homes back in perfect condition - saves me $1000-3000 each turnover.

Apps screened before showings and lockbox showings free our time.

In Home Visits weed out housebeaters before they enter = less turnover cost.

Homes in better condition attract and keep better residents who make less damage (saves money and time), stay longer (fewer turnovers saves money and time), and are just plain easier to deal with (less stress).

ZERO TOLERANCE on lates helps reduce maintenance. Late and non-payers are often rough on the home, CREATING more work and expense for the LL.

The ARE ways to manage in this current worker environment but we must ADAPT. The traditional ways lead to frustration.

The future of maintenance... more expensive. All the way around...

Right now, look hard for a semi retired person that wants something to do. Even if they work slow and only 5 hours/day... and wants time off. They will show up, do the work right, not charge an arm and leg because if they cant make too much... hurts their SS or something....

I had to chuckle yesterday, I guess Lowes is picking up on the trend.

I was buying a countertop and faucet for a remodel I'm doing and when I went to check out the cashier asked me if I wanted the faucet installed for $260. I'm used to getting asked the question about extended warranties but that was a first for installation when buying a product. I politely told her that it would take me 10 minutes after I put the top in and I couldn't afford their hourly rate.

Excellent post NE.

I haven't read through the whole post as of yet as I read slowly, however, I want to make a few replies before I lose track.

I love the debate of a few here.

The new generations seem to mainly be into tech jobs.

I do like the fact that the blue-collar folks are getting valued more as Ray mentioned, and especially since I have always been blue collar and not paid well.

Sid said:

"What are guys like him doing to my profits? Multiplying them. See my example above about how having 54 units vs. 12 makes a world of difference. Your thoughts on that... specifically?"

Sid, I am obviously not NE here, but I would like to reply to that.

How much of that extra profit that you made, go to hiring the work out?

At that point, have you really profited?

Also, maybe it is area specific, but as NE and MikeA have pointed out, the trades people seem to now be making way more than you are thinking.

I hear and understand the argument that you are making, but it still doesn't make since to me in my area. We have a lot of implants coming in and during the scam everyone has been ripping everyone off due to the high demand, thus creating its own scam.

I will continue reading the other responses now.

Also, for those saying to just raise your rents to cover the cost, is there not a limit on how much one can raise rents?

Where is the line drawn on that?

When tenants refuse to rent at that price?

If at that point, what if you haven't raised your rents high enough yet to cover your increased cost?

After all, we are also told to increase our rents due to laws, animals, and other things.

Robin[WI], what is all of that costing you?

I would like to see some real, true, hard numbers on here.

Let's see some examples of what the tradesman are charging vs. what you are making extra by not DIYing.

Does anyone have any examples for us to put our eyes on to give us a better perspective?

Jeffrey, how many skilled techs are going to be willing to be a part time employee, when they could easily DIY for more money?

How much money would you offer to pay them?

Ken, I also would not want to hire an employee, for the same reasons that NE stated. I want to keep things simple.

Do you not find it complicated to deal with employees and the paperwork involved?

6x6, I think the "Take The Tools Out of the Truck" does work when you have enough units to spread the wealth - and the pain - around. When you only have a few, every single dollar counts, both coming in and going out. When you have more, if one costs you a painful amount to repair that year, another is still chugging along bring in $$$$. At the end of the year you WILL have made a lot more in total. You might have even LOST money on that house with the $$$ repairs, but overall you've made more because you have more units.

Makes sense. DIY it until you get enough to spread the pain around.

MikeA, holy cow (poor cow) what a rate!!!

6x6 be careful when taking on side jobs. They can easily become all you get done.

I don't do any side work now. It got to the point when I was working for realtors that I couldn't get anything done on my own places, including my new house.

Last year while I was working on my kid's place the neighbors kept coming over from a couple different houses. They started out just being nibby. No worries as the place had sat empty and was in disrepair. Then I started getting requests for work.

I was kind, but I never agreed to anything. Just told them that I had a lot on my plate but we could discuss once I was finished with all my other tasks. That never happens.

Otherwise I was going to be remodeling a single bathroom in a house with an older gent that had problems with his restroom duties. Lady on the other side wanted me to do some stuff so she could sell the place. I told her I would be interested in maybe purchasing it but she would be better off selling it outright.

That 10 minute plumbing job really isn't 10 minute job. Assuming that you only need to make one trip to the hardware shop and I admit it - I routinely make two.........the true amount of time needs to include leaving your house ( hopefully with all the right tools), going to the hardware shop, waiting in check out, driving to the job site - doing that 10 minute job, listening for 3 minutes from the resident, cleaning up and heading back home.

Complaining about the prices of goods reminds me of the late 70's into the 80's. I was new, saw the inflation but just ran with it. I was on a mission - a DREAM to be FREE!!!

The old timers stood around the free coffee whining about prices. They also stopped buying houses.

Build your DREAM and stop fretting over a few bucks.

Make sure your rents are up to market, add fees for amenities. An extra $100 a month pays for those "expensive" nails. BTW they are not "expensive", they are what they are - and are what we need.

LLs who adjust and adapt will make a fortune. Complainers and traditional LLs won't. We cannot do things the way we always did.

Same with labor.

I agree with you Brad, but for the little guys like me there is more of a burn to the price changes.

I was paying a good guy $16/hr for labor. I supplied all the materials. He now wants $25 for the same thing, if I can even get on his schedule.

Bucket of drywall mud was $15 now it is $22 for the same brand and size.

I bump rents, charge for pets, have late fees and charge more for damages but when materials and labor go up as much and as fast as they have recently it is tough to absorb the difference without it stinging a bit.

Spend money to make money and all that, but there is a fine line before it hurts the biz.

Tomorrow I will be contacting a new lawn guy. I can do the stuff myself. Have for years. Saved money at it. But last year when I hired a guy to do it I had more time for the stuff that was value added. Until he started trashing things and then ghosted me. Hopefully the new prospect won't be outrageous on pricing, but I have my doubts it will happen.

I have resorted to paying people cash and not declaring it just so I can get things done.

Also I did buy a new house. Now I have no play money. Rates and costs for financing are higher than they were. Not crazy, but more than I was used to and that hurts the bottom line as well. I can't refi a typical SFH for 100k and rent it in this area.

Haven't given up. Still moving forward. But sometimes it is tough to make the new ends meet without losing money.

My plumber quoted me $2700 for A WATER HEATER.When I complained ,he said his friend was charging $3000.

I paid a handyman $1000.

Yes,I've done several over 30 years.I just don't like working on them like I have in the past.