Hi all!

My husband & I own and manage rentals. We've been trying to help my husband's father with one of his to NO AVAIL. Here's the rundown:

Father-in-law rents his childhood home, a three-bedroom SF. He NEVER had a lease with the now 60-something woman who's been living there for 13 years at $375/month. Last spring her son moves in. He has a criminal record: corruption of minors, assault, AND in an eviction WITH DAMAGES. FINALLY we had father-in-law talked into requiring a lease, which carried a modest increase ($50/monthly). After delivering it three times, they ignored it. In December, they stopped paying rent. Just about the time the rent was due in December, I gave notice as per PA law that the tenancy would end, unless they signed the lease.

Long story short, this week we're finally at the point where we could file a landlord-tenant complaint in local court to get them out, and father-in-law suddenly says, "I suppose they might pay eventually. I'm not worried about it. I just want someone to pay the gas bill (which they do)"

I don't care about the rent for him, but I am concerned that people staying there with 1. No lease and 2. Now, rent-free could be costly to get out later. The woman is oddly possessive of the property as well, which makes me concerned that she'll somehow try to lay claim to it. It's taking on the feel of explotation. His sons-one is my husband- are equally concerned. It's his property, so the ball's in his court...but I'm inclined to see if an attorney might talk with him about the long-term ramifications and perhaps we can get him talked into letting the lawyer handle it.

Advice???

He's made his choice.

Please do not take this the wrong way but just curious. Does your F I L have any history or signs of alzheimer or dementia. OR just old age factor of forgetfulness.

Your F I L needs to evict this tenant ASAP, if not, the costs of damages and other related issues could add up to major costs. Your husband and you need to talk to him and make him realize its great that he wants to have his gas bill paid. However the problem tenants will be more of an issue for him.

It's not going to be easy to get him to evict this problem tenant. But have the paperwork ready when you sit down to talk to him. OR do the best option Cash for Keys, yes offer this tenant money to get them out of the unit.

Heres the problem if you take this tenant to eviction court and the tenant will make themselves look like poster child for the best tenant ever. PLUS they will play into the hand of the judge making it look like your FIL was the worst landlord in the history of landlords. I am sure there are many things your FIL did not do such as move in inspection among other things.

Unfortunately, none of the issues (no signed lease, unpaid rent, criminal son moving in) matter since they don't matter to your father-in-law.

Although they may have great financial ramifications, it's no different than an elderly parent ignoring doctor's advice, refusing to give up driving, etc.

"Old" people can be quite stubborn and often times their reasoning makes zero sense to those of us who still think rationally about most things.

Tell him to file the POQ immediately, then proceed with eviction immediately after that.

Kim,

I see this happen so often with older owners. It’s like they just let it go, avoid conflict.

We start by checking the utilities by phone. The heat might be off.

Then do an occupancy check. They might be gone.

Then file in court. They have some kind of agenda and you’ll never know what it is, so stop trying to rationalize or figure them out. They either paid or not. Stay or not.

BUT...

Unless Dad has asked you to manage the daughter in kaw id often seen as a meddler. His son(s) needs to step up and work with Dad.

You are correct there are many legal glitches here which will result in physical and financial ruin of his place, unless you and you hubby are legally connected all you can do is make a suggestion to get another opinion you might take him to housing court as an observer to realize the trouble he is causing himself singlehandedly.

"I gave notice as per PA law that the tenancy would end"

Y'all manage rentals for yourselves. Do you have the certs to manage properties for other people? Or is PA really flexible about stuff like that?

We can throw good advice at people all day long, but he has to come to the decision himself.

he's not giving up ownership of the property via adverse possession unless the can prove they have paid the taxes and their use of the premises was "hostile" ...in other words, dad didn't allow them to be there. I believe it is 21 years of continuous for all these to apply.

"corruption of minors"?

Thank you everyone!

We've had family meetings about this—the other sons, the daughters-in-law, and myself & my husband. Everyone including my FIL agreed that requiring them to move was the best course. He just got cold feet. His attitude is, 'I'm an old man, I don't want to be bothered with conflict.' He's not forgetful but he is incredibly naiive. I also DO think there could be more to this. Did he tell her she could live there forever? Who knows. I am not legally qualified to manage property in PA as you have to have a Realtor's license here. I drafted the 30-day notice to end tenancy, he read & signed it.

I agree with everyone-all good advice. I am now going to simply suggest to the sons that they advise him to have his attorney handle it. He won't sell it. I'm fine handling my own evictions - and I was going to attend this hearing as a witness. I figured they'd move out last minute and wouldn't show. Somehow I thought it would be THAT simple. Duh. It never is.

Initially I suggested cash for keys. He wouldn't have it.

I just have a soft spot for people who are getting played, especially family.

But as a former homicide detective told me, "girly, you can't protect people from themselves."

Thanks everyone!

Thank you everyone!

We've had family meetings about this—the other sons, the daughters-in-law, and myself & my husband. Everyone including my FIL agreed that requiring them to move was the best course. He just got cold feet. His attitude is, 'I'm an old man, I don't want to be bothered with conflict.' He's not forgetful but he is incredibly naiive. I also DO think there could be more to this. Did he tell her she could live there forever? Who knows. I am not legally qualified to manage property in PA as you have to have a Realtor's license here. I drafted the 30-day notice to end tenancy, he read & signed it.

I agree with everyone-all good advice. I am now going to simply suggest to the sons that they advise him to have his attorney handle it. He won't sell it. I'm fine handling my own evictions - and I was going to attend this hearing as a witness. I figured they'd move out last minute and wouldn't show. Somehow I thought it would be THAT simple. Duh. It never is.

Initially I suggested cash for keys. He wouldn't have it.

I just have a soft spot for people who are getting played, especially family.

But as a former homicide detective told me, "girly, you can't protect people from themselves."

Thanks everyone!

Dont think you are hearing your Father in law.

He wants to keep his childhood home. But does not want it vacant or the heat turned off. May deteriorate more.

And does not need the money or want to deal with eviction and fixing the property up in order to re-rent. When people get older they value peace and no problems more.

Does not make sense to us but if this is what he wants. Leave him a lone.

You may have your husband try a different approach.

He really wants to keep the house in the family. And would like to see it fixed up in good condition. Easy to explain the extra rent should pay for the improvements.

Also guessing the place needs a lot of work. You could play up that the place may not be safe and could result in a lawsuit if anyone falls or has a injury.

Explain that even with no rent, that he is required to maintain the property.

Come up with a plan and have one of his sons handles all the problems.

Evict, fix the place up and turn over to a property manager.

Father does not have to deal with anything. Just gets to see the property fixed up and it stays in the family for his sons.

This is really between Father and children. DO NOT get "in laws" involved. It will not turn out well, you can give your husband advice, you can even give your father-in-law advice if you have experience in this. Otherwise, you and the other daughter in laws should not be involved (except to advise your husbands on what to do). Things get prickly fast when you are talking family money, property and inheritance.

Glad it looks like it he sees the light, but I really do suggest YOU back off getting involved unless specifically asked.

EXCELLENT!!! That's great that FIL has made his concerns known to the sons and DIL.

Agreed that requiring them to move was the best course action. Now the sons or at least one needs to be the point person to make sure things stay the course. What I mean is the father does not need to talk to this tenant. All correspondence to be done by notices and forget verbal contact with her. As we all know she will make excuses.

He just got cold feet. His attitude, 'I'm an old man, I don't want to be bothered with conflict. He's not forgetful but he is incredibly naiive. He's a " Mom and Pop" landlord that is use to doing it by a hand shake. PLUS he feels if he keeps the rent below market that they will stay and not move AND FIL will not have do any work to the house.

I also DO think there could be more to this. Did he tell her she could live there forever? Who knows. It's possible!!!

I drafted the 30-day notice to end tenancy, he read & signed it. Excellent plus FIL may not know the landlord tenant laws for PA. AND the tenant and judge will work against FIL in court. BE prepared for the tenant to lie which she will and she will make things up and your FIL may or may not recall what he told her. This is not about his remembering its about the tenant twisting and making herself look good in court. PLUS it will be a frustrating time in court for FIL.

Now one of the sons will walk with him through the process of evicting this tenant.

There are some FIL that may feel the DIL is a "gold digger" or "not good enough for their son". I think it was Brad20K mentioned meddling in his business. This may be true in some cases. However, some DIL like yourself have a genuine concern for him. PLUS does not want to see him being taken advantage of either.

Your FIL is trying to keep the family home. HOWEVER does any of the sons want the family home and are they in the area to handle it as a rental or their own place to make their home. PLUS FIL wants to hang onto the memories of their childhood. This thought is great but when it becomes a rental now its a business and no longer the family home. For some people this is a hard concept to deal with.

I totally disagree with the posts that mentioned the sons and DIL need to keep out of it. It's not their concern. This is a case where the FIL needs help from his sons and DIL and they need to help him out of a bad situation. I can guarantee he will not sell the house because of the childhood memories. This is ok but emotions gets in the way of good business decisions. I bet the house is way below market value of rent. Maybe conditions of the house is below as well. It most likely needs a good painting and spruce up of every surface in the house. AND it may have asbestos and lead as well. It would be good to test for the two environmental issues.

Kim of PA it's great that you and your husband are helping to improve the rental. And then the work begins as you know with rentals of preparing the house for the next renter. Once the house is spruced up then set up the process of renting the house, screening process, strong lease, etc.

Painting the house will be a major improvement plus update flooring with click vinyl fiooring especially in the kitchen and bathrooms. However the house may have hardwood floors that may need refinished.

It may be helpful to set up the house with one of the sons on the deed with the father because then you don't need to worry about being a manager with a real estate license. Plus this is a form of estate planning as well.

"Dad, we love you and respect your decision in this. Have you ever thought about what might happen to you if this criminal son tries to sell drugs out of this house or does something unsafe and burns it to the ground? Would your insurance cover you, and would you potentially be liable in a lawsuit if other people die or are injured? Could someone sue you for this and take away not only this house, but the house you're living in?"

Some folks think if you ignore problems they just go away. In this case, I'd see no problem creating a healthy level of concern for "letting these sleeping dogs lie."

There was a lady who owned a house next to a tax house I bought last year. She sounded a lot like your dad. Druggies invaded the house, let the utilities get turned off, and started getting electricity by running an extension cord across the backyard of our house and plugging it into the wall socket of the house 2 over and plugging it into a socket in their house, back feeding the panel. I don't know if it was that (I told them to knock it off several times) or that they eventually got tired of being cold and set up a BBQ grill in the middle of the living room, but about a week later they burned that house to the ground. When I talked to the owner, she had no clue that was all going on but just "didn't want to get into a conflict with them."

Sid of MO, That's a great case study of what can happen when a landlord does not stay proactive with their rental.

About 20-25 years ago in Brewer, Maine there was a woman who refused to leave a property. Not sure what all the complications were, but it took a year or two. The woman lived there with no heat or electricity because she didn’t pay those bills. By the time the owner got the property back the building has so much damage it had to be torn down.

Update: At my suggestion this afternoon, sons talked to FIL and impressed upon him the importance of handing this over to an attorney. He promises he will go see his attorney tomorrow. I'm out of it. I most certainly agree I could be cast as the meddling DIL, which I do not want.

I feel comfortable handling my own evictions. But as he began to waiver, it was in no one's best interest for me to even try to guide him through the process.

He's in his 80s, and yes, a 'mom-and-pop' landlord for sure.

I'm a journalist—a former newspaper editor—as well as property investor and between the two I've seen so many types, good and bad. My process is to have a process, an application. He doesn't of course, so I background checked the son of the tenant immediately upon learning he moved in and whipped out the records for the SIL to see over the summer. He's a frequent flier around the local magistrate's courts. Oh, another fun detail: The tenant started sending hand-written notes to FIL she wanted him to sign, which stated the amount of the rent and the terms. He gave them to me and did not sign, thank God. THAT was when I told the sons -my hubby too - that someone has to help him manage this situation and require a lease.

Oh, and the son is running some type of weird business out of the house where he recruits people to sell hoodies. That's another story.

Yeah.

In general it seems like there's a decent number of people who acquire rentals and lack the skillset to manage them. It creates huge problems for them.