NOI
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NOI (by Bill [KY]) Mar 19, 2018 5:27 AM
       NOI (by WMH [NC]) Mar 19, 2018 5:58 AM
       NOI (by RB [MI]) Mar 19, 2018 6:03 AM
       NOI (by S i d [MO]) Mar 19, 2018 6:17 AM
       NOI (by Sisco [MO]) Mar 19, 2018 6:25 AM
       NOI (by Jeffrey [VA]) Mar 19, 2018 6:51 AM
       NOI (by S i d [MO]) Mar 19, 2018 7:12 AM
       NOI (by Bill [KY]) Mar 19, 2018 9:08 AM
       NOI (by Bill [KY]) Mar 19, 2018 9:12 AM
       NOI (by Jeffrey [VA]) Mar 19, 2018 11:14 AM
       NOI (by NC INVESTOR [NC]) Mar 19, 2018 12:15 PM
       NOI (by NC INVESTOR [NC]) Mar 19, 2018 12:19 PM
       NOI (by Pmh [TX]) Mar 19, 2018 12:36 PM
       NOI (by Bill [KY]) Mar 19, 2018 5:44 PM
       NOI (by Sisco [MO]) Mar 19, 2018 6:18 PM
       NOI (by Beth [WI]) Mar 19, 2018 6:40 PM
       NOI (by NC INVESTOR [NC]) Mar 20, 2018 2:55 PM
       NOI (by Pmh [TX]) Mar 20, 2018 3:03 PM
       NOI (by GKARL [PA]) Mar 20, 2018 8:38 PM


NOI (by Bill [KY]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 5:27 AM
Message:

It’s tax season and I’ve been looking at my NOI and comparing it to previous years and it made me curious (& honestly a little angry b/c I know I can do better). I want to throw out a hypothetical scenario and see responses based on your own NOI experience managing your properties. Before we start, NOI is an established calculation and not up to your own interpretation of what it should be (income minus expenses...fyi, mortgage/debt repayment is not included in this calculation). So here’s the hypothetical...if you had roughly $100k in gross rents, what would your NOI be?

--24.26.xx.xx




NOI (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 5:58 AM
Message:

So you want a straight income minus expenses, not counting mortgage? Are you including taxes and insurance? --50.82.xxx.xx




NOI (by RB [MI]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 6:03 AM
Message:

Net Operating Income.

(Non Abbreviated, 6 X.)

--47.35.xx.xx




NOI (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 6:17 AM
Message:

Bill, yes NOI is a specific calculation, but before we can crank the numbers we'd have to know the expenses that go against that $100K. Are you saying what would my NOI be if I only had $100K in gross rents without accounting for my actual numbers? If yes, I can tell you it would be negative because my gross rents are considerably higher than $100K today, and so are my expenses.

The NOI Calc includes:

Gross Operating Income (GOI) MINUS

- Taxes

- Insurance

- Maintenance **

- Supplies (may be combined with Maint)

- Utilities if provided by LL

- Grounds keeping if provided by LL

- CapEx reserve set-asides

- Property management **

- Legal expenses (evictions, title work, etc)

- Trash service if provided by LL

- HOA dues, if applicable

- Book-keeping & tax prep **

- Office rent, supplies, and other fixed overhead, if applicable

- Vacancy ***

- Misc expenses (phones, printer ink, computers, etc) allocated by percentage to each property/unit

= Net Operating Income

Then you subtract out debt-service, which equals free cash flow (aka Cash on Cash return).

I put "**" behind items that some land lords don't account for or DIY. I'm trying to do a better job of that by "paying" myself a flat rate 10% fee for property management since I self-manage, and if I do any maintenance I pay myself a flat hourly rate of $45. I know that will irk some folks.... I don't care. (wink) I don't do much of my own maint any more.

I put "***" behind Vacancy because in some calculations I see vacancy subtracted from Gross Potential Income (GPI) to arrive at Gross Operating Income (GOI). Others subtract vacancy from GOI. Doesn't really matter to me. Dollars lost to vacancy are dollars lost to vacancy. I typically assume 5% vacancy, which seems to be an industry standard. Adjust as needed for your local market and/or client base.

At the end of the day, I doubt most small time and even many medium sized land lords truly run our numbers like this. I only hear NOI and such figures discussed with multi-unit properties where the high 6 and 7 figure amounts are in play.

The typical ma and pa LL cares about free cash flow. How many $$$s and I keeping each month?

--173.17.xx.xx




NOI (by Sisco [MO]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 6:25 AM
Message:

For my mobile home lot rents $100,000 gross nets $70,000.

For my mobile home rentals less lot fee $100,000 gross nets $50,000 --72.172.xxx.xx




NOI (by Jeffrey [VA]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 6:51 AM
Message:

Bill, so that everyone can talk apples to apples, it may be helpful if each landlord first determined what their PERCENTAGE OF net operating income compared to gross potential rent (revenue). Then once a landlord has figured out his or her NOI percentage, then they can compute what their total net operating income would be if they had $100,000 in gross revenue. I believe that is the number you are looking for.

For example, last I looked at a study by the National Apartment Association, the national average for a landlord's percentage of net operating income for garden apartments was about 61%.

So that would mean that the average landlord with garden apartments with $100.000 in gross revenue would have $61,000 NOI. --100.4.xx.xxx




NOI (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 7:12 AM
Message:

Using Jeffrey's thought, my NOI is about 55%. All of my expenses typically total 45%. It has ranged higher or lower by several points in any given year, but the average is 45% of my rents are consumed by expenses.

This is BEFORE mortgage payment, which should not be included in NOI, but rather included in the Cash on Cash return calculation.

I own mostly older properties, which tend to have more maintenance. Jeffrey's research includes properties that I would guess are much "younger" on average and therefore have lower expenses. --173.17.xx.xx




NOI (by Bill [KY]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 9:08 AM
Message:

Thank you Sid, Sisco, Jeffrey and others. For the purpose of this discussion, I’m after exactly what Jeffrey detailed in his above post.

--166.137.xx.xx




NOI (by Bill [KY]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 9:12 AM
Message:

Sid, my expenses are averaging about 50-55% before mortgage repayment. I have older properties also (1950’s sfh’s). --166.137.xx.xx




NOI (by Jeffrey [VA]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 11:14 AM
Message:

It should also be noted that the percentage I mentioned above was taking into account only normal operating expenses and capital expenses is normally not included when calculating NOI. When you add in capital expenses during the year, which actually averaged 9% for the average owner of garden apartments, you have now increased your total expenses for the year to 48% of your revenue.

Therefore the average rental owner of garden apartments with $100,000 of gross potential revenue would end up with $52,000 (52%) in revenue. --72.214.xx.x




NOI (by NC INVESTOR [NC]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 12:15 PM
Message:

60.4% for 2016 since 2017 books aren't ready for prime time yet. My list does includes everything on Sid's list except tax prep and bookkeeping since those items are for multiple companies plus personal.

--71.75.xx.xx




NOI (by NC INVESTOR [NC]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 12:19 PM
Message:

My NOI is for all properties since it would take too much time to figure it out on just $100,000 GOI. --71.75.xx.xx




NOI (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 12:36 PM
Message:

Bill: not feasible to respond to your initial post. It depends....... --104.218.xxx.xx




NOI (by Bill [KY]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 5:44 PM
Message:

Sid, I self manage (I don’t pay myself a prop Mgt fee) and I didn’t take into account setting aside cap x reserves, which would make my 50-55% look much worse if accounted for. So much to improve upon. --24.26.xx.xx




NOI (by Sisco [MO]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 6:18 PM
Message:

Bill, Sid, capex reserves will not reduce profitability as they are retained earnings on your balance sheet. --72.172.xxx.xx




NOI (by Beth [WI]) Posted on: Mar 19, 2018 6:40 PM
Message:

Mine runs about 50% of gross income. --24.177.xxx.xx




NOI (by NC INVESTOR [NC]) Posted on: Mar 20, 2018 2:55 PM
Message:

SISCO: Retained earnings are typically found in Corp's not LLC's. An LLC would normally have their profits in the Owners Equity account and those do not normally appear on a P&L report. I would think that many on here have their business setup as an LLC rather than a corporate entity. --71.75.xx.xx




NOI (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Mar 20, 2018 3:03 PM
Message:

capex reserves are not (part of) retained earnings. they are an asset on the balance sheet. Sid is correct though that reserves do not affect p&l. lenders will however factor in reserves holdback into cash flow. --104.218.xxx.xx




NOI (by GKARL [PA]) Posted on: Mar 20, 2018 8:38 PM
Message:

If I factor in a 10% management fee, my NOI is around 50% of rents. The vast majority of small landlords like us self manage and when I buy a property, it's never with the view of doing anything other than that. I'm not entirely convinced that smaller investors like the ones I'd sell to or buy from even consider management fees when analyzing a property as most never intend to pay them. For the appraisals I've had done, they've always used 5% for management presumably as a compromise given the numbers who self manage. --207.172.xx.xxx





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