I own 30 properties in a low income area and cannot find ANYONE to help with maintenance & turnovers other than felons, drunks or druggies. The problem is it's not enough work to have a FT employee with benefits but it's too big to do it myself. Plus I am no longer living nearbly and work FT. I've tried getting PT help but they are harder because of no benefits. And no, I do not want to quit my professional job and do all the repairs. 30 years of that was enough.

I've tried social media, employment agencies, realtors,, etc and they all tell me no one wants to work. There's only one PM in the area and his reputation is terrible. In fact I've purchased plenty of their managed places cheap from owners who were sold a good story and lost them because the deplorable conditions only got them bad non-paying tenants to begin with.

I've worked hard doing most of the repairs myself with a drunk cash guy when I was able to be there to watch them.

30 years later, I can't do it all and have sacrificed plenty of my family years away building this up.

I've even talked to the housing agents and apparently there is only one larger LL who made this his FT job and has a cash helper. I've tried to convince contractors, from larger areas to take the work, but they won't bother for the small repairs here and there. They'll take a big remodel but not the repairs that pop up daily and they will tell you they'll do them if they can fit them in. Problem is these have time limits from the code guys and they never can do the fixes in time.

I offer pay about 2X the hourly rate of what FT workers make for similar employment & still nothing. The only ones that are interested and still have the baggage want CASH otherwise they'll loose welfare benefits. In fact, I offered a guy $20/hr as a 1099 but he wanted $8/hr cash only!.He felt I was ripping him off.

If I don't accept felons for tenants, then why would I risk them working to on my properties where theft and even worse could happen..

Of all things that happen in this business, I never imagined this would cause the beginning of the end of my business.

So now I ask how is anyone on this site finding competent help As many of you don't have employees.

The late great Leigh Robinson told me you need to have employees or you will have problems. He was a wise man as that is exactly where I'm at!

There is none left. 10-15 years ago in the boom n bust I had no problem getting good help. At one point I had a payroll, etc. Now at nearly 62 I am having to get on the roof to paint stuff.

Last plumber I hired cost me $250 to replace two angle stops because I wasn't feeling well enough to lay under the sink.

WOW Mike of PA you have a problem.

What IF you were to take the worst 10 units and do some updating or any maintenance that is needed. Place the 10 units on the market. Do a 1031 exchange on the units and purchase nicer units in a near by town.

I wish I were not busy with mine, I could work on yours.

Seems like I'm in PA every other weekend anyway.

You need to pull someone from out west or from the east...of Paris.

Your area isn't going to produce anyone fast enough to satisfy the code compliance.

Aside from that, a walk to the fire department to ask in person or the high school shop teacher.

Remember retired military make the best property managers. I wonder if the 70 plus crowd would want to come back 1/4 time.

(I have found people who talk about wanting extra income or more money in general are just talking. You need to spot the person out there who is working)

This is a tough situation. Maybe you can’t have it all. Long distance rentals, full time job elsewhere. You don’t want to put effort into managing and maintaining (understandable)

El cheapo!$20.00 hr

My guy gets 1K a week whether he works 5 hrs or 40. He's a 1099. I supply the van and all equipment.

Do this in your head. If you hire a full time guy for 40 hr week YOU WILL find work for him. If you only work him for 35 hrs and pay him for 40--- you are now golden to him and loyality builds.

I have changed up my approach in recent years. I have found that low skilled labor rate ($15 - $20 per hour ) is not much cheaper than a more highly skilled tradesman ($30- $35 hr).

HVAC guys and linemen looking for side work have worked out well. Plus, they have a lot of contact with other tradesmen.

The guys that I mention have wives, kids in college, own homes have lots of payments and pay their bills. They take on some side projects for extra $$.

Starting the conversation by giving the impression that they won’t be earning much money is a non starter.

I understand where you're coming from. My post last week Growing Pains shared some similar problems.

A few local LLs and I have talked about pooling our resources to hire a full time maintain man. None of us has over 100 units, but together we could keep a guy busy.

Another thought I discussed with a buddy is to start up a handyman company. You are right that good ones are hard to find, so there is no doubt some major demand. When he's not busy being hired out to other small time LLs he'd be working on my places.

After reading some other posts especially sisco post it brings this to mind for all you newbies out there.

Create a data base for your business-- not the tenant data base but a tradesman data.

We started ours on an Apple IIE (some here remember that super duper computer) its about 5 pages long and only has people on it that we deal with. Yes insurance man also but mainly trades people we've met and the one's who do good work with fair pricing. Each slot has the top guy (girl) to call and 2 or 3 back ups in case #1 isn't availalble.

If I were you, I'd either sell or quit my job.

I've learned a lot from you older folks on here and where I live and one of the major things is that you're on your own! You can't depend on anyone other than yourself and hiring help is harder than finding good tenants.

So what do I do with that info?

I do it myself and am thankful when I have a little help.

Everyone's position in life and pocket book is different.

For me, I'll be working on these places until 1 of 3 things happens: I sell, I die, or one of my kids takes it over.

NE PA I find your last post amazing and frankie I don't believe it. If you were really that way not wanting to train or teach others WHY DO YOU POST HERE?

You don't have to give up what you certainly love to do but there is satisfacting in finding someone to teach-- just like you do here. Work together training that person -- teach them about the OTHER side of this business.

I love the maint part of our business and will go to most jobs each day to meet our man-- on a turn property I'll go for 6 hrs or until its close to finish.

Think your missing out on a satisfing aspect of LLing help someone in a trade or learn a trade.

Myob, I don't mind posting here because I like talking to other landlord's and investors of any caliber. That's different to me than handyman. Here at home, I am not a people person and would rather be at the units myself anyway. When I have flips, I like to have as much help around as I can.

Rentals are my domain. I don't want to train someone and then once I get them to where I want them, they leave and do something else and I have to start all over.

economics 101 dictates you simply have to pay more, either directly in pay or indirectly otherwise.

You're not too small to succeed. Just because some people hire everything out doesn't necessarily make them more successful than you. It could make you less successful if it causes you to go broke in the process.

"I've tried to convince contractors, from larger areas to take the work, but they won't bother for the small repairs here and there. "

myob: My first PC was an Apple IIe (around age 13 or so). Then moved up to the IIgs -- what a beautiful machine!

- John...

Market rates will vary, of course, but I've found for a qualified handyman that I don't have to babysit, $40/hour is about the minimum rate.

For all day jobs, my main guy charges $250. Buying in bulk helps, but if he has to travel then there's an extra charge.

I've found good help is worth it, but you're right, it's getting somewhat cost-prohibitive. I'm doing more "partial-remodels" in between tenants these days. Rather than fix the 1 or 2 items to get it rent-ready, I'll batch together enough repairs to where hopefully we won't need anything for the next 3 years or so. Replace shut off valves, repaint, caulking wet areas, weatherstripping, etc. Then I pay one $250 fee for a day's work vs. $40 here, $80 there, $120 in 6 months, etc.

I should sell everything and just go work for landlord's for what you guys are ok paying! Holy cow!

Not always David. You have to factor in the headache and drama factor as well. Something's justify the high per hour rate. Hvac, electrical, plumbing. Caulk the tub, touch up the paint and change the mini blinds doesn't justify the high rate.

The high priced guys typically start their days out at a business, load their trucks, schedule arrival, complete the job, print out a bill right from the truck and move on. They are often employees of larger firms.

The caulk the tub guy is $10-$15. Following your model of paying him $30-$45 to get him to show up will likely result in 1-2 things, you'll be hiring a big guy who isn't going to waste his time coming to do your small jobs like the OP stated already or the $30-$45/hr guy has a couple junkies working for him under the table that he will send in his place, pay them $10 and pocket the other $20. It happens all the time. I see it with my own eyes ALL THE TIME.

So to the OP's situation, he's going to overpay for help from a distance or hire cheap from a distance and babysit. Then when he comes in on the weekend to see the progress, sees thing messed up, his tools missing and empty beer cans and a pot roach on the counter.

So the OP has a decision to make: sell or move home.

When we first tried ll'ing, I was really frustrated. Coming from D/FW-- I used to have my choice of a thousand different plumbers, or a thousand different electricians, or ten thousand different handyguys. Here-- not so much. But I've still managed to find people. For the skilled stuff, you still don't have a whole lot of choice, but for the handyguy stuff, there's usually a few competent guys to choose from. But even with the competent guys, they're usually popular-- because they're competent-- and I realize I have to share. But, I do try to keep the relationship good, so that I get slotted in when I can, but I also try to keep in mind the level of skill of my guy, and have enough guys of varying skill in my pocket that I don't have to waste my guy I use for, say, a rafters-and-drywall job on a wiggly toilet?

Where do people go in your town to find a reliable go-to guy? Is there a lumberyard or a hardware store where people put out their cards? Ask someone who works there who they'd recommend-- because there's always reputations in such a small circle of people, and anyone can print up a business card that says anything... but they all know who shows up like clockwork for the first month, and then falls off the planet; or who needed to go re-do so-and-so's work, because he didn't have a clue what he was doing; or whatever.

If you're in a relatively populated area, have you tried something like Takl or Angie's List?

NE, be sure to read the whole post, my friend! $40 hour is for a mini-job like show up, fix leaky toilet, out the door in 60 minutes or less. This includes his drive time.

If I pay for a day's work ($250), it goes down to $31/hour, which for a guy who knows what he's doing, has his own tools/truck, and requires no babysitting. He's also 100% legit, 1099-MISC, so he's paying his taxes.

Re: caulk the tub guy

Sid, gotcha.

Btw, my main guy does plumbing and light electric. H won't run a new 220 V line or change out a service pannel, but pretty much anything else.

NE, the magic hand of the free market does not care about making sense.

David, that's understandable. You're talking about 2 different things. Emergencies and routine maintenance. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference!

I pay a premium for emergencies as well. As we all should if it's hired out.

Mike isn't talking simply about emergencies.

Well, we had some snow last night so I'm off to shovel a few common area sidewalks at the multi's, so I don't have to pay someone $150.

Simply Amazing.

Before I go shovel, I'm going to make one more post. And if you're sensitive, don't read it. Mike, I think you could further asked the question "Am I a failure?". Does anyone here think that Mike is a failure? He wrote that he is too small to succeed in the form of a question. To me, that means that Mike thinks that he's not big enough to keep doing what he's doing. I say nonsense.

Mike, the ability to hire everything out has nothing to do at all with whether or not you are a successful investor or landlord. Hiring everything out is touted here over and over and over. As if it's the ultimate goal of what we do. That is total BS! I know very successful landlords here locally in flesh and bone that do almost everything themselves. Are they not succesful?

Mike of PA, There may be a little burn-out too.

I have one remodeling guy that does a lot of larger jobs, but will sell me a day every couple of months. Little stuff piles up until he can get to it. This week, he has installed an ADA grab bar in a shower (including cutting into the wall behind the shower to add reinforcing), repaired some general electrical in 3 places, and a couple of small plumbing jobs. He works for himself and is a craftsman. Charges me $30 and hour these days, but well worth it. He redid a lot of work in my own home a year ago.

If it is an urgent little job, sometimes he says he can't do it. Sometimes he can squeeze an hour or two while some drywall mud dries in another location.

John MI so I wasn't the only one with the 2E? 2 disks man we were in heaven?????? 128K not the token 64K like the commodore.

John true story-- after using the apple for a few months I told my brother, who made a fortune in the stock market with Citibank-- years ago I know. I wanted to put all I had into apple stock. He told me Apple isn't going to last-- IBM is the big player and Apple will go by the wayside. Don't even get an apple machine because no one will be writing programs for Apple.

Lord what have I done? Why didn't I listen to myself?

Off topic I know but I haven't cried about it for a week.

My advice is to sell them all and 1031 into properties right near you. You can combine 3 of those into one replacement. Sell 30 and end up with 10 in a better area close enough for you to take care of them.

Better houses means better tenants, higher rent, fewer repairs.

I have a friend of mine who just most of his properties. He ran about 16 units and did all of the maintenance himself. He would physically go to each tenant to collect as well. That meant rushing back from vacation to make the collection rounds and deferred maintenance if he was too tired or just couldn't get to it. Eventually, it got to the point where he couldn't do the stuff physically and sold. He made out well on the sales though.

There's no one approach and we have to do what aligns with our interests, abilities and time. For me, performing maintenance other than the simplest things is simply not sustainable. For one, I don't enjoy it and more importantly, I don't have the time. This is why my strategy revolves around scaling so there's enough money to pay someone to do the stuff. And that drives what kind of investments I'm focused on----which is why I go with multi-family. That doesn't eliminate the challenges finding good help, but at least it limits the effort to one place which means more efficient management for me.

MYOB: In 1980 my mother bought 1,000 shares of Apple. In 1985 Steve Jobs just quit and the stock dropped to $2/share so my mother went all in and told me and my brother we needed to buy Apple. My very first stock purchase was 5,000 shares of Apple. When we started buying some properties in late 2006 I had considered selling Apple to fund some of the houses. It was at $20 share then. My mother and brother were convinced it would be a huge mistake and told me they would carry the mortgages for the value of my stock. When it came to stocks I always followed her advice so I held on to Apple.

Mom has since passed away but now when dividends are issued my brother makes me take him and the family on vacation.

Wow, alot of responses, let me state a few more things...

I also own some properties near me which are worth 3 to 4 times what the 30 are worth. On these I continue to do ALL maintenance, etc. because they are close by.

I do all the property management on all my properties close and far. So with that, working FT, managing these, raising a family, etc there just physically isn't time in the day to be onsite for the 30 properties.

Adding injury to insult, my spouse is battling a serious illness and I have minor children to take care of.

I absolutely don't feel like a failure, quite opposite.

The 1031 would not work for buying in my area because the market is way overpriced to make the numbers work.

If all businesses had this problem there would Only be local mom and pop stores, so what am I missing.

Wow, alot of responses, let me state a few more things...

I also own some properties near me which are worth 3 to 4 times what the 30 are worth. On these I continue to do ALL maintenance, etc. because they are close by.

I do all the property management on all my properties close and far. So with that, working FT, managing these, raising a family, etc there just physically isn't time in the day to be onsite for the 30 properties.

Adding injury to insult, my spouse is battling a serious illness and I have minor children to take care of.

I absolutely don't feel like a failure, quite opposite.

The 1031 would not work for buying in my area because the market is way overpriced to make the numbers work.

If all businesses had this problem there would Only be local mom and pop stores, so what am I missing.

Mike,

I understand your frustration but don't use it as a cop out - use it as an opportunity. Are you the only person where you live and invest at that is too small for a FT employee? If the answer is there are other investors about the same size as you, why not split a FT employee 50/50% with another investor.

That or outsource specific task to specific folks and keep a running tickler of folks that are keepers. You need to outsource more and work work ON the business not in the business

Here's some ideas on where to find trades people. Maybe you can find something that works:

Visit the local Vo tech school and talk to the building trades teacher. He might be looking for summer work or know someone that is. Teachers are always looking to fill part of their summer.

Drive around and look for trades people around town, ask if they know anyone looking for after hours work.

Talk to the lumberyard folks, they always know someone.

Put a gig on craigslist and see if you get any hits.

Angies list or home advisor.

Stop by the union halls and ask around.

ASk at the landlord association meeting.

If the market place is too hot for 1031 exchange then possibly you could consider doing a 1031 into a NNN property in an area that isn't as hot.

Hi

I am going through a similar situation. I have an awesome guy that I have been using for the last 5-8 years. Before that I had someone who I had used for even longer. When the first guy moved on I thought the world was ending but then I found the other person who worked at a property management firm full-time and then for me 0-25 hours per week. He is now justly retiring to Florida.

I also use "people ready" but they send me what I call "odd ducks" that are only good as laborers.

Hi

I am going through a similar situation. I have an awesome guy that I have been using for the last 5-8 years. Before that I had someone who I had used for even longer. When the first guy moved on I thought the world was ending but then I found the other person who worked at a property management firm full-time and then for me 0-25 hours per week. He is now justly retiring to Florida.

I also use "people ready" but they send me what I call "odd ducks" that are only good as laborers.

Hi

I am going through a similar situation. I have an awesome guy that I have been using for the last 5-8 years. Before that I had someone who I had used for even longer. When the first guy moved on I thought the world was ending but then I found the other person who worked at a property management firm full-time and then for me 0-25 hours per week. He is now justly retiring to Florida.

I also use "people ready" but they send me what I call "odd ducks" that are only good as laborers.