4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 28, 2017 4:04 AM|
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Oct 28, 2017 4:17 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 28, 2017 4:38 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Oct 28, 2017 4:44 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Oct 28, 2017 4:50 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Ken [NY]) Oct 28, 2017 4:56 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by WMH [NC]) Oct 28, 2017 4:58 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by LindaJ [NY]) Oct 28, 2017 5:10 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Smokowna [MD]) Oct 28, 2017 6:15 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Oct 28, 2017 6:22 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 28, 2017 6:24 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Homer [TX]) Oct 28, 2017 6:56 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Richard [MI]) Oct 28, 2017 7:00 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Oct 28, 2017 7:03 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 28, 2017 7:32 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 28, 2017 7:54 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by allin [VA]) Oct 28, 2017 8:09 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Homer [TX]) Oct 28, 2017 8:12 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Ken [NY]) Oct 28, 2017 8:13 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by AllyM [NJ]) Oct 28, 2017 8:41 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by David [NC]) Oct 28, 2017 9:15 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Robert J [CA]) Oct 28, 2017 9:31 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by RR78 [VA]) Oct 28, 2017 9:58 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Robin [WI]) Oct 28, 2017 10:43 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 28, 2017 11:44 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by LindaJ [NY]) Oct 28, 2017 1:14 PM
4 mil plastic / windows (by WMH [NC]) Oct 28, 2017 2:01 PM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 28, 2017 3:05 PM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Busy, busy, busy [WI]) Oct 28, 2017 3:21 PM
4 mil plastic / windows (by AllyM [NJ]) Oct 28, 2017 3:21 PM
4 mil plastic / windows (by cjo'h [CT]) Oct 28, 2017 3:23 PM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Salernitana [CA]) Oct 28, 2017 6:59 PM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Nellie [ME]) Oct 28, 2017 8:04 PM
4 mil plastic / windows (by nhsailmaker [NH]) Oct 29, 2017 4:29 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 29, 2017 5:03 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 29, 2017 5:40 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Busy, busy, busy [WI]) Oct 29, 2017 6:46 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by WMH [NC]) Oct 29, 2017 6:47 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Oct 29, 2017 7:00 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 29, 2017 7:28 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by S i d [MO]) Oct 30, 2017 11:43 AM
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Oct 31, 2017 4:02 AM
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4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 4:04 AM
Why do some tenants install 3-4 mil plastic sheeting over the outside of their windows? I have a 5 year tenant that has done this to the house she rents from me. She is moving out and I will probably have to remove the plastic sheeting and the staples that hold it in place. This old house still has the original wood sash windows in it.
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 4:17 AM
Her parents probably did it when she was young to insulate. My parents and grandparents did it. Common with old pane windows up here in the north.
Ask her. --50.107.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 4:38 AM
Does the plastic offer any real insulating (R factor) qualities or does it just block the wind? What is your opinion of me adding 'storm windows' to this house? This house has a total of 10 (32x58) windows.
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 4:44 AM
I wouldn't add storm windows, I'd put in replacements.
Blocking the wind in a sense does add r-value. You're slowing down the transfer of heat by creating a pocket of air between the window and the plastic.
Fiberglass insulation is essentially thousands of pockets of trapped air. That trapped air gives you your r-value.
I'm not technical like Lee or NHsailmaker, they may have a better explanation.
I know up here when I was young"er", it was a yearly tradition to put the plastic on in the fall and take it off in the spring. That, along with the towels at the bottom of the doors. Anything to cut down the drafts. --50.107.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 4:50 AM
Roy, about 3 years ago we flipped a 2 story farmhouse. It had all old single pane windows in it. We had the heat running at the normal 60 degree temp we keep them during remodel.
We had window world replace the whole house worth of Windows with regular double hung replacements, nothing special. No low-e, no argon.
The day after they replaced all the windows, it was considerably warmer in the house. Still the same 60 degree setting, but the chill draftiness was gone.
I like replacing windows when I can. Looks good, saves tenants money. I even offered one replacement of a large picture window as a move in gift option. They had the choice of a modern window or a new stove. They took the window. Fine by me.
4 mil plastic / windows (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 4:56 AM
I think NE is right on,if you put in new windows you will be further ahead than just putting storms on and the windows are no harder to do and you will be half way there price wise anyway and if there is lead in the house the windows are the worst of the lead problems and you can eliminate that also --72.231.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 4:58 AM
Roy, check out windowinserts.com. We put these in a sunroom that had old single pane windows and it made a huge difference. Cheap too. --173.22.xx.xx
4 mil plastic / windows (by LindaJ [NY]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 5:10 AM
Plastic creates and air space that has insulation value, and stops the drafts of old single pane windows. We did that in an old farmhouse I lived in when young. We would also put plastic along the stacked stone foundation and held it in place with hay bales.
Just as a fan helps make you feel cooler in summer the drafts in a house make it feel cooler in winter. NOT what you want.
In my current 1850s houses, I have either replaced the windows if they are really bad, put on triple track storms on the second floor, and still use the old wood storms on the first floor. They are all very helpful in stopping the drafts. Replacing all the window is not going to be cost effective for me. --96.236.xx.xx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Smokowna [MD]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 6:15 AM
I vote for replacement but with argon. It is no longer a bells and whistles but more the standard. A window without low e and argon is ...well, a storm window at best.
What I mean by that is an old window with a storm window equals a cheap vinyl window. Test it or research it yourself.
The key is ease of use and getting rid of the lead possibility.
Window installers are hacks anyway, they don't insulate around the replacement window so much of the efficiency conversation is mute.
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 6:22 AM
Smoke is correct. A single pane window with a storm window outside is the same as a double pane window without the insulation and vacuum. --50.107.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 6:24 AM
Replacing all of the windows in this house with modern double pane windows (even the cheap ones sold at Lowes) would cost around $3,000.00. Now, it is time for a "reality check" and lets see if this new information changes anyone's mind about installing new windows.
This house is one of my Class C economy houses or "Chevrolet's" as I affectionately call them. I bought this house in 2006 and since then have had 3 tenants (each tenant stayed a min of 2-3 years). Each of my past tenants never complained about "drafty windows", none of them complained about "high power bills" due to leaky drafty windows,...so in reality here,...if these old drafty windows do not seem to bother my tenants,...why should they bother me into replacing them???
If you were me,...would you spend $3,000.00 on new windows here? Would you even spend $1,000 on putting storm windows on the outside?
4 mil plastic / windows (by Homer [TX]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 6:56 AM
As a young teen, I remember getting to help put plastic on the inside of the windows of the house we were living in at the time. It did cut down on the wind. Yes, I would change the Windows out. Would I pay 3000, no. I would wait until Home Depot has 20 off on the special order Windows, which they do 3-4 times a year. Normally these Windows would cost you about 160 each. I would only get low e coating on the ones that the sun hit, I would also use my Lowes 10 off coupon for additional savings. If I shopped right, I would only spend around 1200-1300, yes, I would do that, but no way would I spend 3000, as a DIY er, I would have a blast getting to change them out. --75.141.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Richard [MI]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 7:00 AM
Roy, I'd use that 3000 to get another house!
If they don't complain, don't spend money on things they don't care about. --74.43.xx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 7:03 AM
I would not put on antiquated storm windows under any circumstances. That's like installing avacado green or gold shag carpet.
What I just did in the turnover I'm working on now was went through and check all the windows. I replaced 9 in the apartment that were either broken or difficult to open and close.
I may offer the new tenant a anniversary gift in a sense and offer to replace 2-3 windows of their choosing at their 1 year mark if all their rents are paid on time.
It's a matter of eating an elephant.
A little $ now and a little $ in a year or 2 and a little money in a year or 2 after that and soon you have a unit full of new windows. --50.107.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 7:32 AM
I have uploaded a photo of this house on my picture page. Even the attic vent has plastic on it!
This photo was taken in July 2016 when a freak wind storm caused a large tree in the backyard to fall and it demolished the back corner of the house. Yes, the tenant was complaining quickly about this! Cost $2,000 out of pocket to remove the tree and make repairs to the roof/soffit damage. --68.63.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 7:54 AM
Homer said "as a DIY er, I would have a blast getting to change them out".
4 years ago, in another no-frills economy house of mine, I installed 10 new double pane windows (the existing windows had rotted out) and I did not have a blast installing these new windows. Just removing the old wood sash windows (with 2 crowbars) was a major PITA. Maybe you could come here and show me how to have fun with this DIY project.
I now have a handyman who will remove and install a new window (any size) for a flat fee of $50.00. I just call him now. --68.63.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by allin [VA]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 8:09 AM
Get a quote from window world or window king or whatever is in your area. I find the cost installed through them is the same as I can buy from lowes. I have replaced several houses worth. It make the house nicer with easy opening windows that are cleanable and no lead paint to deal with. If you plan on keeping the house then change them. They are more expensive to get fixed, however. --174.226.x.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Homer [TX]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 8:12 AM
Roy, I am 50 YO now, but still a kid at heart. Busting stuff up, just can't be beat when it comes to having fun. Then the feeling of accomplishment once the new windows are in! Sounds like you have a plan for the handyman to get er done. Not that bad of a price, but now he gets to have all the fun and not you. --166.137.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 8:13 AM
Roy,no complaints from the tenants I wouldn't replace the windows and I wouldn't put on storm windows.Doing any of the work on a house is not fun so I hire it done also.The fun part is getting a call from someone desperate to sell there house today,that gets me excited --72.231.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by AllyM [NJ]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 8:41 AM
I have plastic up inside on most of my windows at home. It's much lighter that 4 mil. There is a lot of draft through windows when the wind blows so your rental may be too chilly for them and the windows leaky and they prefer not to have drafts and be cold. I have old wooden windows at my home and metal storms that leak like crazy. A couple windows have the original wooden storms and I just leave them up because they conserve energy in summer too by keeping hot winds and humidity out. All my rentals have new double panes but some leak air a bit because crappy contractor did not put enough insulation between window and house on installation. I need to pull the molding on a couple and pack insulation in there. One guy used duct tape to cover the gaps. What a bad guy he was.
Why they would put it on the outside is maybe they don't know about the inside variety that is more see through or there is no way to fasten it or they have plants on the window sill. It has to over the sill on the inside to be effective.
4 mil plastic / windows (by David [NC]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 9:15 AM
I seem to spend more on renovations than you guys but that is probably because I am not as experienced as ya'll. I have an A property that is 1962 3/2 with single pane windows in wood frames. I spent the $4000 to replace the 14 windows and the installer did a great job including flashing the outside, caulking, screens, and interior trim. Roughly $285 a window. The old windows had some rot, some didn't open and some were painted shut. None had screens. Window world was $1000 more.
I do think tenants notice when you have new windows. I'd be concerned from a liability standpoint if there was fire and the windows did not work or were painted shut.
I am sure there are ways to bring the cost down but I was happy with the result.
4 mil plastic / windows (by Robert J [CA]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 9:31 AM
When I was asked by my tenants to make repairs in their rental home where as the windows were covered with plastic, aluminum foil and other things that blocked out the sun, I entered the property with a string of garlic around my neck, holly water and a silver cross. (maybe some of this was just in my mind and not in my hands).
Since the tenants were from a Latino origin with olive colored skin, an automatic tanning quality that I envy, I knew it couldn't be an allergy to the sun's rays.
During the repairs I was waiting for someone to take a bite of my neck...but what I found is my curtains removed due to playfulness of one of the 9 (nine) children living in the house (all kids from this couple). Their cheapest method to cover the windows for privacy is plastic bags and reclaimed aluminum foil. --47.156.xx.xx
4 mil plastic / windows (by RR78 [VA]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 9:58 AM
I myself would still spend the money on windows.
That is not a bad house, would make it look better and cut down on some maintenance.
And of course save tenant in electric cost. And may help just a little in the goal of better and longer term tenants. --73.177.xxx.xx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Robin [WI]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 10:43 AM
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Leave the plastic up so the next tenant doesn't have to put new staple holes in the trim. Point out the "energy conservation features" as a selling point. :) --204.210.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 11:44 AM
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it?" should have been the title to this post. Thanks Robin !
Just 6 months ago, the tenant complained of a leaky roof. Since the existing shingle roof was worn out, I bought a new metal roof for this house. I do fix things that need fixing. --68.63.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by LindaJ [NY]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 1:14 PM
As I said earlier, some windows I replace, the ones that are really rotted out, a danger to open. Others I put new glazing putty on where needed, maybe some foam strips on the bottom, top or where the sashes meet if they leak. I change the wood storms and wood screens seasonally for the ones on the first floor. The old windows just look so much more authentic on the house. The upstairs windows, I put triple track storms on because I am no longer able to climb the ladder and lift those heavy wood ones.
The nice thing with the triple track is the screens and storms are right in those tracks, so the tenants only have to pull them up or down as they need. Since these are old farmhouses anyway, I don't get the tenants that want something new and fancy. I don't get the rent that covers a lot of that either.
It always amazes me that once the tenant moves in they pull the shades and drapes and make it so dark during the day. Yet they were excited about how bright the place was when they looked at it. I give them hints on how to save energy but they don't care.
4 mil plastic / windows (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 2:01 PM
I'll say it again:
Fast and cheap. Order two for each window (half for top, half for bottom, as that saves big time on shipping) and in the off seasons pop one on top of the other to be able to open the windows. They are dead simple to install. From the inside. --173.22.xx.xx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 3:05 PM
I did check out the window insert website. Since these window inserts are "removable',..I am afraid my Class C tenants would do damage to them (similar to exterior window screen damage) or steal them if they saw any real value in them.
Everything in my houses is being 'bolted down' for a reason,...for example,..I am now using shower rods that screw into the walls instead of the easy to steal tension rods. Plus, at each vacancy, I am having my plumber install non-removable metal screens in the vanity and tub drains which should prevent the tenants from removing the pop-up drain plugs.
4 mil plastic / windows (by Busy, busy, busy [WI]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 3:21 PM
I'd do the Wiindow Workd windows. I get their mid-level. I spend $5 k per house, as I have them do a 'wrap' on the exterior trim. I'm trying to make my houses low maintenance, and trying to keep tenants 10+ years. I've only been at this since 2012,, so time will tell.
In AL, your concern probably wouldn't be wind as much as heat gain. Low E glass can really help with that. Window film on the storm doors makes a big difference too. My tenants also like the enhanced privacy. --70.92.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by AllyM [NJ]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 3:21 PM
I am going to measure tenant's bathroom window which she says is drafty. Its a double pane but has moisture on the inside now so handyman is going to have to replace it. I will get one of those inserts to try it out there until he gets to it in between working on his flip house. --73.33.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by cjo'h [CT]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 3:23 PM
Roy, glad you're feeling good again.if your handyman is as good as you say he is,he's pulling down $50 an hour, Can you make that,not bad for a handyman,and he isn't even in a Union? Charlie...... ..... .... ... .. . --174.199.xx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Salernitana [CA]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 6:59 PM
I am in total disbelief at the very reasonable price of $50 an hour for the labor to replace a window? You are extremely lucky and blessed to have such a handyperson.
RobertJ, what an amazing story about the tenant with nine kids who put up pieces of tin foil and plastic bags on the windows.
Anyway, this is such a great thread of informative posts, and Roy, thanks for bringing up the topic and for adding what you keep bolted down on your rentals.
Best of luck in the rehab and finding a new tenant when you're ready. --67.170.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Nellie [ME]) Posted on: Oct 28, 2017 8:04 PM
I vote for the new windows, even if it is only one or two at a time. Too much work to maintain those old lead encrusted hazards. And when the wind outside blows the curtains are not blowing also. I hire it out. I don't find it fun to replace windows. --70.16.xx.x
4 mil plastic / windows (by nhsailmaker [NH]) Posted on: Oct 29, 2017 4:29 AM
As an energy auditor and Landlord I have to choose which profession wins out. In Roys high heat and humidity area and a class "C"building I would choose do nothing. New windows are visual pleasing but you still have a house with 20% of the walls that are in essence holes (windows) . Although windows are rated as "U" values they have a corresponding "R" value. At best new windows mean you increase 20% of your total wall "R" value from R-1 to R-3. If 80% of your walls are R-13 then the math is hard to substantiate the expense. As energy auditors we always recommend do absolutely all other energy efficiency measure before you waste your money on new windows. Next would be storm windows or the www.windowinserts.com. In mobile homes we make the interior storms with plexiglass. That being said my landlord hat tells me that I suspect they are lead issues & that would warrant new vinyl if you plan to hold residence in your portfolio. --24.34.xx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 29, 2017 5:03 AM
My handyman's hourly rate is $25/hour. However, with new window installations, he uses a flat fee of $50.00 per window (not hour). To remove an old wood sash window, install a new window, shim it, trim it out, and caulk it usually takes him 2 hours. If he has his young apprentice with him, he can install a new window in one hour.
My handyman is 75 years old, is in good health for his age, and has worked in the house building business (carpenter/framer) for the last 40 years. There is nothing concerning houses than he can't do. --68.63.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 29, 2017 5:40 AM
Thank-you nhsailmaker for that expert analysis to this post!!
This house was probably built in the 1930's. I know for a fact there is NO INSULATION in the adjacent wall cavities around these windows. (The attic has some blown-in insulation but the wall cavities around the windows have none). To me, it would make no sense to install expensive argon filled double pane windows in a house to only insulate that 20% hole factor nhsailmaker made reference to. The other 80% leaks air like a sieve.
On a different note, these original wood sash windows 'may have' been painted with lead paint when they were first painted in the 1930's. However, that original paint has been painted over (encapsulated) many times with modern paint and thus lead paint issues are not really an issue here. This same house also has the original Asbestos siding on it (great siding too), however, that asbestos siding has been covered (encapsulated) over with vinyl siding. As long as a problem is covered with something else, the original problem is not an issue anymore.
4 mil plastic / windows (by Busy, busy, busy [WI]) Posted on: Oct 29, 2017 6:46 AM
Just a quick correction to the statement that if a hazard is encapsulated, then it's safe. Not true of surfaces that are subject to friction, such as windows and doors. No matter how well encapsulated, friction will wear bits of dust off, and those small, fine bits are less likely to be noticed, get picked up by kids' toys unnoticed.
That's why there are more restrictive lead renovation rules for windows. --172.58.xxx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by WMH [NC]) Posted on: Oct 29, 2017 6:47 AM
Thanks, Sailmaker. We have replaced windows sometimes in houses with little to no insulation in the walls (think mobile homes or old beach cottages) and I have disagreed but didn't have facts to back up my arguments against them.
However, if the building is located in a windy area, it does make a difference even with no insulation in the walls. We have some studios built in the 50's maybe (no idea) that are right on the water, and replacing the old windows and especially the sliders did make a huge difference. --173.22.xx.xx
4 mil plastic / windows (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Oct 29, 2017 7:00 AM
Roy, I'm always amazed how your simple posts turn into such large conversations.
I swear you could post: Screwdrivers: Phillips or flat? And get 75 responses. --174.201.xx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 29, 2017 7:28 AM
You are correct. I once made a post asking a simple question about how to unload used roofing shingles (quickly) from a Ford F-150 at the county dumpsite and got a ton of responses.
I actually learn a lot from posting here.
4 mil plastic / windows (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Oct 30, 2017 11:43 AM
I recently purchased a house with all older, single pane wood windows. The frames themselves were not too bad...just the bottom sill was rotted on some, but otherwise reasonably well intact. I could have paid my handyman $25 each to scrape and repaint them or paid Window World north of $250 each since this house probably has lead paint. Bleh.
What I did instead was bought replacement storm windows. $50 a pop at Lowe. Metal painted with white. Looks nice on this older home...not the "industrial" aluminum look from 50-60 years ago.
Here's the product:
Comfort-Bilt Single-Glazed Aluminum Storm Window (Rough Opening: 28-in x 55-in; Actual: 27-in x 55-in) --173.19.xx.xxx
4 mil plastic / windows (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Oct 31, 2017 4:02 AM
Yesterday I did an exterior window inspection of the windows mentioned in this post. This was actually the 1st rental house that I bought in Jan. 2006 (seems like yesterday). Back in 2006, I spent one whole week scraping, re-glazing, using a putty knife and painting these windows at a time when I did not know any better (rookie). That massive restoration type paint job that I did 11 years ago is now gone and I will not be scraping and re-painting them again.
I do know about the storm windows you mentioned. I just hope I can find the correct sizes since my old wood sash windows measure approx. 36 x 55. I may even install new vinyl windows on the street side of the house and just use storm windows on back side. --68.63.xxx.xxx
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