$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 7:26 AM|
$16K house update (by #22 [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 7:35 AM
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 7:50 AM
$16K house update (by James [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 8:00 AM
$16K house update (by #22 [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 8:02 AM
$16K house update (by James [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 8:12 AM
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 8:16 AM
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Sep 28, 2017 8:21 AM
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Sep 28, 2017 8:23 AM
$16K house update (by Amy [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 8:35 AM
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 8:39 AM
$16K house update (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Sep 28, 2017 9:42 AM
$16K house update (by Ken [NY]) Sep 28, 2017 9:56 AM
$16K house update (by Oregon Woodsmoke [OR]) Sep 28, 2017 10:12 AM
$16K house update (by Roy [AL]) Sep 28, 2017 11:00 AM
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Sep 28, 2017 11:03 AM
$16K house update (by Roy [AL]) Sep 28, 2017 11:37 AM
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 12:51 PM
$16K house update (by Barb [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 1:08 PM
$16K house update (by Sisco [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 1:12 PM
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 1:13 PM
$16K house update (by cjo'h [CT]) Sep 28, 2017 1:37 PM
$16K house update (by RB [MI]) Sep 28, 2017 1:39 PM
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Sep 28, 2017 2:37 PM
$16K house update (by Deanna [TX]) Sep 28, 2017 3:14 PM
$16K house update (by Skunk [KY]) Sep 28, 2017 3:40 PM
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Sep 28, 2017 3:48 PM
$16K house update (by Dave [MO]) Sep 28, 2017 4:09 PM
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Sep 28, 2017 4:25 PM
$16K house update (by Travis [OK]) Sep 28, 2017 4:26 PM
$16K house update (by Robin [WI]) Sep 28, 2017 5:53 PM
$16K house update (by Tom [FL]) Sep 28, 2017 8:24 PM
$16K house update (by Salernitana [CA]) Sep 29, 2017 12:06 AM
$16K house update (by Jerry [MA]) Sep 29, 2017 9:23 AM
$16K house update (by Pmh [TX]) Sep 29, 2017 2:35 PM
$16K house update (by Deanna [TX]) Sep 29, 2017 4:03 PM
$16K house update (by OKHMBLDR [OK]) Sep 30, 2017 5:48 AM
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 7:26 AM
Some of you responded on the last post you were curious how this is going....so here you go!
The agent & broker have tried reasoning with the Seller, and I've forwarded our attorney's opinion that we have a valid contract and/or the Seller committed fraud by trying to sell something she wasn't legally entitled to sell, but Seller is not budging. In her last email, she bluntly ends the conversation with, "The contract is terminated."
Does this remind you of a tenant refusing to pay rent until we do X, Y, Z that they decide is part of the lease agreement even though it's not? Huffing and puffing...
In latest email, Seller claims someone tried to burn the house down....supposedly threw something flammable against the privacy fence and lit it. I wonder if this is a tactic to scare us away: stories to imply the house is too risky to pursue?
I'm trying one last ditch effort (conference call with me, Seller, and agent's broker), but if she is obstinate we'll have to pursue her in court. Not my favorite way to do things, but sometimes part of the job is re-educating people as to their responsibilities. --173.19.xx.xxx
$16K house update (by #22 [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 7:35 AM
Sid, have you looked into trying to blemish the title, so that it cannot be sold to anyone but you? I have gotten into contract battles and the prices to fight them have ranged from 5-25k. Blighting the title, so that only you can buy might be a good move too... --173.24.xxx.xx
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 7:50 AM
Do tell....how does one blight a title? This is a cheap house as you've noticed. We have to do it cheaply if we do it. --173.19.xx.xxx
$16K house update (by James [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 8:00 AM
I would discuss recording a lis pendens with your attorney. Lis pendens means lawsuit pending. Once recorded she won't be able to sell, at least not through a title company. --24.243.xx.xx
$16K house update (by #22 [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 8:02 AM
I heard heard of 2 ways... forgive me if my terms are incorrect.
1. Record the contract to the title indicating you have the right to purchase the home (no title ins co would be wise to issue a ti policy on it..yeah.. i know it's a 16k house, but no one closes without it)
2. Record a memorandum of title against it, thereby creating a mechanism to be noticed by a title company when trying to issue title insurance
The goal would be to scare any buyer from buying it based on title defects which would not be insurable... which Sid could theoretically come back and enforce --173.24.xxx.xx
$16K house update (by James [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 8:12 AM
Just make sure you discuss any actions that would affect title with your attorney. There are possible consequences to "slander of title". --24.243.xx.xx
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 8:16 AM
#22 and James, thanks for the input.
I've been reading up on lis pendis, title slander, and title affidavits. Interesting stuff and learning a lot! Will have to look into recording contracts, etc. --173.19.xx.xxx
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 8:21 AM
File a lis pendens on the property. --74.37.x.xxx
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 8:23 AM
Sid, do some calculations on this, but with this seller, I'd throw some money at fighting them just for the experience of it. Have a walk away budget of course. The education will be priceless. --74.37.x.xxx
$16K house update (by Amy [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 8:35 AM
That's such a shame. Sounds like she doesn't know how to negotiate with these debt collectors. It'd be a huge load off her shoulders. Hope she comes to her senses.
I'd wonder if somebody offered her more money?
Id agree the fire is a scare tactic. She's not scared enough herself to sell to you. And it wasn't the actual house-it was the fence. Close but not that close.
Unless shes trying to say you lit it to try scare her out of the house? (if it even happened) --136.32.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 8:39 AM
NE, you make valid points on the experience gained researching and possibly fighting, and also having a strict budget. It might not pay off for THIS particular property, but later on I think knowing how the process works may be worth a nominal "tuition" in case a later deal is much more $$$.
When I evicted my first tenant, I knew nothing. Had to learn. I didn't let them walk all over me for fear of going to court. I regarded it as tuition in the school of hard knocks, and I learned a lot about screening.
Going forward, I've learned about "screening" sellers. In the future, I'll probably at least look Sellers up on CaseNet to see if there's any potential issues. --173.19.xx.xxx
$16K house update (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 9:42 AM
Also know a judge can easily throw all that stuff out because
-she did not know about the extra lien
-she is not a porfessional and you are, with an advantage over her
-the price is not realistic for this beautiful plot
-courts are slow to take away someone's property.
Just some thoughts.
$16K house update (by Ken [NY]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 9:56 AM
If you can buy the oldest judgment for cheap you will be holding the right cards,if she sells to someone else you get paid at full price,if you want to you could foreclose on that lein and wipe out the other judgments behind you --72.231.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by Oregon Woodsmoke [OR]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 10:12 AM
I know you could make a nice profit on this house, but do you want it badly enough to get into a lawsuit over it? Lawsuits are expensive and you never really know what a judge might do. --174.216.xx.xx
$16K house update (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 11:00 AM
If a woman promised to marry you and even signed a piece of paper saying she would and then changed her mind on the wedding day,....would you pursue her in court?
Sid -walk away from this. It is not worth the uphill legal hassle. --68.63.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 11:03 AM
Marrying a woman and buying a house are two different things. As a matter of fact, some people get prenuptial agreements to protect their houses from their women! --174.201.xx.xxx
$16K house update (by Roy [AL]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 11:37 AM
My marriage question was intended for Sid only. For whatever it worth, marriage is a legal contract just like buying a house is. They have more similarities than they have differences. --68.63.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 12:51 PM
NE and Roy...two of my good pals! You guys make my life and these discussions interesting. Marriage and real estate...two dicey situations if not handled properly.
So here's a thought. I think real estate, like poker, can be a bluffer's game. Right now, I'm looking at our "hands." I'm holding a full house. Either I have a valid contract or I have her arguing she didn't have the legal right to sign the contract which means she has confessed to committing fraud in her email. My view of the Seller's hand compared to mine is she's got nothing at all and is trying to bluff her way out by making no logical argument whatsoever and just saying things like "The contract is terminated."
Will a judge agree? Who says it has to go to that point?
If we serve her notice of either a breach of contract or fraud law suit...maybe she pays up. If not...oh well. I can always dismiss the case. Filing fees are cheap. Clouding the title by recording notice of a lawsuit is cheap. $100-$200 for the whole shebang.
Who says I have to FIGHT to win? Maybe I just make life difficult enough that she decides to pay me "go away" money. This Seller is not the home owner. She's a POA and, in her words, wants to help her mom get on with her life. They WANT to sell, they're just being lazy by not trying to negotiate down the liens. This property is a burden to them. Time is on my side, not theirs. Maybe 2-3 months from now and a legal notice service later...the tune will have changed. --173.19.xx.xxx
$16K house update (by Barb [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 1:08 PM
I like your thinking, Sid.
I really wonder if you couldn't buy the liens for 10% of face value, plus register the contract. All depends on what the property is worth to you. --131.151.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by Sisco [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 1:12 PM
Sid, based on your description of the property and the owners:
NOBODY else will be making them an offer. The liens have them stymied. By placing your lien on this property you will increase the chances that negotiations will re open.
If you don't buy, it as very likely that you will be seeing this one on the tax sale list in the future.
You may as well contact the current lien holders and start those negotiations.
As you and NE say- this one is tuition. --72.172.xxx.xx
$16K house update (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 1:13 PM
Forgot to mention the Seller/POA lives in Woodside, California. It's a long, expensive trip to Springfield, MO....and depending on how much she wants to fight it could be multiple trips. For me it's 20 minutes.... --173.19.xx.xxx
$16K house update (by cjo'h [CT]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 1:37 PM
It's just too complicated for my little mind to comprehend.Charlie. .. ... .... ..... .. --174.199.x.xx
$16K house update (by RB [MI]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 1:39 PM
5 bucks says ya don't get it.
It's all over but the crying. --71.13.xx.xxx
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 2:37 PM
Sid, how much do you stand to make off of this house over the next 30 years? --174.201.xx.xxx
$16K house update (by Deanna [TX]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 3:14 PM
quick question, but there are three groups of people, right? the mom, the poa, and the people who are living there. do you think all the squeakiness comes from the people living there, who are making life difficult for the poa, and getting in the way of the job she's doing for the mom? you had mentioned the residents wouldn't have enough money to buy their place in the country, ergo, it wouldn't make sense to sell. does the mom live there, or are the residents her other adult children, or...? --166.137.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by Skunk [KY]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 3:40 PM
Funny. Had almost exactly this situation. Made a 16K offer, sellers signed, and then we found all the liens. Liens were ~ 260K total, mostly clerical where an extra zero was added to a 25K lien. We told the seller the bad news, then got their permission to negotiate on their behalf.
Here's what we did:
- Got our real estate lawyer to handle the lien negotiations for us.
- We didn't know how to negotiate these, and wanted a pro.
We got one. Lawyer got the 260K down to ~3K in liens...at a cost of $500 more in legal time. Sellers were happy to get 13K, we were happy to get a house, lien holders got something, lawyer got paid. Everybody won.
At some point, your seller wanted to sell. Maybe your lawyer can mostly make this problem go away, too. --74.139.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 3:48 PM
Exactly what Skunk said. When I take the time searching for properties and I finally zero in on one, I WANT IT. I do what I can to get it until I've exhausted my options. You're still in the phase of discovering
your options on this one. --74.37.x.xxx
$16K house update (by Dave [MO]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 4:09 PM
Do you have out of pocket damages?
I don't understand why you would sue them over a 16K house?
Am I missing something?
Sounds like they already have financial debt that they can't pay now.
$16K house update (by NE [PA]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 4:25 PM
I think too many people are fixated on it being a $16,000 house. That really doesn't have much to do with it. --74.37.x.xxx
$16K house update (by Travis [OK]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 4:26 PM
If the house is free of mortgages, with just the liens, could your attorney broker a deal where the owner sales it to you in an installment sale? Essentially you buy it from them on a mortgage, subject to the liens. In this arrangement you would get title and then gain value by negotiating down the liens. If you canít negotiate them down, at least you can pay them off with the cash flow from renting the property. --70.215.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by Robin [WI]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 5:53 PM
I think this would be worth pursuing just for the education. Even if you don't win, you'll learn something of value down the road. And I bet you win. :) --204.210.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by Tom [FL]) Posted on: Sep 28, 2017 8:24 PM
Hello Sid of MO, WOW POA needs a little MORE education from the Realtor that has walked her through two contracts. The first contract was the listing agreement on the house. The 2nd contract the purchase agreement on the house. The owner of the house is the mother and the POA is the daughter. Hmmm the POA says, "The contract is terminated", hold on POA verbally it does not happen that way.
In the listing contract it talks about liens against the property and the seller is responsible for them. As the POA she should have been aware of any existing liens. The mother signed paperwork for any and ALL liens irregardless of who the money was for son, contractor or others. Now the Realtor, Owner(mother), POA daughter have a contract that is valid, its signed and ready for closing.
Sid you may want to have a title company do a title search and get a list of liens on the property. You will spend a few dollars to have this done and you may have it already. However It may give you more leverage knowing the lien holders and lien amounts. Let your attorney know that you want a list of the liens, he most likely will have a title company run the title search. IF your county/State of MO is in the 21st century and you can access the property liens via the internet you may be able to access it yourself and see what liens are against the property. Tell the Realtor, Seller/POA that at closing there will be X amount placed in escrow account that your attorney will have access to the account as your attorney contacts the lien holders to settle the liens. IF there are any moneys remaining once the lien holders are paid off, the legal fees will be paid and the balance will be sent to the POA. Like one of the other posters had mentioned go to the oldest lien holder if they are local and maybe buy the lien for pennies on the dollar. However IF you do this make sure that your attorney is ok with it. I don't think that there would be any issues but it does not hurt to ask your attorney.
On the other hand consider buying out all the liens for penny on the dollars and get the paperwork for the note and record the proper paperwork that you are now the new lien holder. THEN start the foreclosure process on the property and now you may get the house for less.
I believe you most likely have time of the essence in the contract. Push for in writing time of the essence and you are ready to go to closing. The pressure is on the Seller and POA(daughter) and the Realtor as well. I would send time of the essence notice to the Realtor, POA(daughter) and Owner(Mother). Sid have you been given a copy of the POA? It sounds like you are making the POA nervous and that's OK.
By the way Owner/Seller(Mother/Daughter and realtor a buyer does not care what money the seller needs to buy a trailer or beach front property in Hawaii. AND the buyer does not care IF the seller breaks even or does a short sale because the house is only worth fair market value. The person that was going to live in the trailer may have to live with the daughter or rent for several more years. Oh Well its not the buyers concern.
SID of MO the next notice I would send to Realtor, Seller include mother and daughter POA. Send overnight certifiied I would not talk verbally to them nor text or email. This is similar to a tenant that has gone bad. Theres a legal document in play now folks heres how it going to be certified notice to all parties.
The buyers concern is there is a signed sale contract, the property must be free and clear, per paragraph __ of Sale agreement and closing is set for a certain date per sales agreement. Have the title company escrow the funds to cover the liens IF NOT fraud and other issues will be investigated in the POA paperwor, listing and sales contract on this property. As the Buyer I will expect to have notice of closing, date time and location sent to me or a called from the closing company. Time Is Of The Essence per paragraph __ of the sale contract. Thank you Sid of MO Buyer. See you all at closing.
$16K house update (by Salernitana [CA]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2017 12:06 AM
The seller lives in Woodside, CA? It's such an exclusive area in the San Francisco Bay Area. I wonder if she's lawyered up or if she's holding onto a childhood home? Did she come out to California to go to Stanford or to work in Silicon Valley where she met and married a rich guy? Who knows?
The responses are full of really excellent strategies and interesting analogies to marriage. Thanks, S i d, for the update, and please do let us know what happens. Best of luck. --172.10.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by Jerry [MA]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2017 9:23 AM
"The contract is terminated."
By saying this the seller explicitly agreed that there was a contract. The question then is whether or not she can unilaterally terminate the contract without providing any consideration to you. I would doubt it.
I agree with others about looking into filing a lien against the property. She might not want to sell now, but when she does she will get in touch. --71.233.xxx.xx
$16K house update (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2017 2:35 PM
not sure why anyone is fixated on $16k house. --104.218.xxx.xx
$16K house update (by Deanna [TX]) Posted on: Sep 29, 2017 4:03 PM
I think it's more the "for sale: one house" "okay, I'll buy it" "great, let's do it" *pause* "uh, nevermind, I wasn't serious" aspect of the situation that keeps me tuning in for the next development. :) We all deal with tenants who decide to disregard the terms of their agreements... it chafes a bit when you run into the same thing from a would-be seller. :) --166.137.xxx.xxx
$16K house update (by OKHMBLDR [OK]) Posted on: Sep 30, 2017 5:48 AM