OT: Nation of Debtors (by S i d [MO]) Aug 21, 2017 7:03 AM|
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 7:38 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Terri [OH]) Aug 21, 2017 7:53 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 7:57 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by S i d [MO]) Aug 21, 2017 9:59 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Salernitana [CA]) Aug 21, 2017 9:59 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 10:03 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 10:04 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Randy [OH]) Aug 21, 2017 10:20 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by CDM [CA]) Aug 21, 2017 10:39 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Luba [NY]) Aug 21, 2017 10:49 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by JR [ME]) Aug 21, 2017 10:56 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by cjo'h [CT]) Aug 21, 2017 12:06 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 12:09 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by S i d [MO]) Aug 21, 2017 12:11 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 12:16 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 12:17 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by cjo'h [CT]) Aug 21, 2017 12:19 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Landlord ofthe Flies [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 12:34 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 12:35 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by S i d [MO]) Aug 21, 2017 12:38 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 12:41 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 12:48 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 12:55 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 1:02 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 1:13 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 1:13 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 1:17 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 1:18 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 1:23 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 1:27 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Aug 21, 2017 1:28 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by S i d [MO]) Aug 21, 2017 1:33 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 1:39 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 1:45 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Smokowna [MD]) Aug 21, 2017 3:25 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 21, 2017 3:29 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Chris [CT]) Aug 21, 2017 4:49 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Livethedream [AZ]) Aug 21, 2017 4:58 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Ed [PA]) Aug 21, 2017 4:59 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Vee [OH]) Aug 22, 2017 11:32 AM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Aug 22, 2017 11:20 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Aug 23, 2017 2:18 PM
OT: Nation of Debtors (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 7:03 AM
This isn't a post about investing with debt. My views on that are well known and do not need to be repeated.
I like to check usdebtclock . org occasionally to see how things are going. A few numbers worth noting...
Total US National Govt Debt: $19.9 Trillion; $168,000 per tax payer; $61,000 per citizen (includes the baby born one second go). Includes public and intra-Govt debt, all of which still has to (theoretically) be paid somehow via a revenue stream.
Student loan debt: $1.4 Trillion
Mortgage debt: $14.5 Trillion
Social Security liability (actuarial accrued bennies): $16.2 Trillion
Medicare liability (as with SS): $27.7 Trillion
There are lots of other numbers to look at, and like any numbers one ought to ask "what is the source?" I don't know. They do seem to match within 1% the numbers I see at other sites such as SSI.gov and treasury.gov.
I was talking with a local business owner on Saturday about whether or not the Govt can afford to raise interest rates, as that effectively makes our continued debt and refinancing of maturing debt more expensive. A 1% increase in t-bill rates means hundreds of billions of $$$ in more interest payments as we continue to borrow to finance current shortfalls and roll over existing debt into new debt. Basically, it becomes a self-destruct mechanism because it makes us even less fit to pay for current expenses and debts than we currently are...sort of like the tenant who borrows from one Pay Day lender to pay off another, taking on more interest all the while.
We are now at the highest level of Debt to GDP in our nation's history (103%) EXCEPT right after WW2 (113%). At that time, millions of GIs/sailors/airmen were getting the pink slip which lowered our GDP back to historic levels of between 40%-60% within a decade.
So here we are in 2017 with no war of any major size and no foreseeable mass "layoff" to get us back on track. This time, it appears to be the "War on Poverty" (i.e. entitlements) getting ready to kick us in the tail, as the dollars pledged to those programs outnumber the national debt by a ratio of 2.3 to 1.
I wonder how much longer the can is able to be kicked? Will it go over the cliff in our lifetime? Fallout, repercussions? Or will it go on forever like some immortal version of Ancient Rome? I don't know the answer. All I know is we live in interesting times.
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 7:38 AM
Look at the stock market, unemployment. It looks like we're on track to me, but who am I, just ask the president.
As of end of 2016, zillow reported that total value of residential RE is $30T so the debt is basically 50% LTV. --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Terri [OH]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 7:53 AM
If you do not understand how our money system works then I urge everyone to watch videos by Mike Maloney called The Hidden Secrets of Money. I believe there are seven episodes. He pushes metals purchases but please do not let that deter you from the excellent explanation he gives for how our money system was created and what will most likely happen down the road. This is something everyone should take into consideration. Once you spend some time learning how our money system works you will grasp the concept that our economic growth is based on DEBT and the only way to continue growing the economy is to produce more debt. This will be impossible to continue and our fiat system will do the same thing that all over fiat currencies have done in the past...go to zero!!
Sorry to say that we are all slaves in this system whether we like it or not!
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 7:57 AM
oh and as of Q12014, the US govt has assets of $270T. So the US government is very much not in debt. --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 9:59 AM
David, you raise an interesting point. I wouldn't mind buying a piece of Yosemite at auction. Or maybe I could get that box of Vietnam-era gas masks my supply sergeant has. So cool!
Ah, Zillow Zestimates! Need I say more? ;-) --173.19.xx.xxx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Salernitana [CA]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 9:59 AM
Hey S i d, it's good to hear that you're aware about Rome... Michael Hudson and Chris Hedges have spoken about the parallels in case you're interested.
As for war, I think that we are spending a sizable amount on one or ones that includes privatized military and related-adjunct military services. These don't make attention-grabbing blips on the GAO's reports. Whether it's $1k for toilet or the $100 hammers, the list of outsourced work is tremendous. The rather newer US Embassy in Baghdad was touted as the largest and most expensive one ever built, and its maintenance I'm guessing is outsourced to certain companies whose budgets are covered by the US. --172.10.xxx.xxx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 10:03 AM
Sid, just because YOU can't buy yosemite, doesn't mean it doesn't have value. And I'm pretty sure you can buy gas masks on ebay and amazon.
And you know fully well that zestimates aren't off by more than 10-25% --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 10:04 AM
A lot of people aren't selling their houses at FMV ; doesn't mean their house isn't worth beans --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Randy [OH]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 10:20 AM
I agree with David. You should look at the whole picture. Another minor detail one should consider is that our monetary system and all this debt has created the highest standard of living in the history of the human race. --24.171.xxx.xxx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by CDM [CA]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 10:39 AM
I don't pretend to understand our whole financial system, but I do know that there's a big difference between a government that has the power to print money and also has the huge advantage of having the whole world's reserve currency, and a family or business or smaller government that has to work within a much more constrained system. These "We're in debt! It's a disaster!" jeremiads don't ring true to me, because they don't take all the important factors into account. --24.130.xx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Luba [NY]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 10:49 AM
I always trying to figure out what can I do to be safe?
Unfortunately I can't offer to buy out my portion of debt and ask to cross my name out.
OT: Nation of Debtors (by JR [ME]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 10:56 AM
Not to worry, inflation will eat away relentlessly at the National debt over the coming decades so the dollars paid back will be way less valuable than they are today. Inflation is a tax on wealth in all forms. We will be fine. Broke, but fine. --98.13.xx.x
OT: Nation of Debtors (by cjo'h [CT]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:06 PM
$ 19.9 trillion.How much is that in real money? of course China owns most of the tangible assets.David ,[ wouldn't even want to say Hello to that Idiot! Charlie..... ... --174.199.xx.xxx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:09 PM
Yosemite has no $ value until it is sold. JR: the flip side is I pay the fixed mortgages in declining $...of course that is factored in to the 3.75 > 4.15 % rates I pay. debt can be a win win. lenders get income & I can use the loans to make $ on buying rentals and collecting rents. Both lender & borrower contribute to gnp. as does the renter. Many get confused that all debt is bad. some here get religious. those are not understanding what the religious tomes say. Even 2,000 years ago it was understood that credit greases the wheels that make the economy function and benefit all. It is how credit is used is the problem. we sure do not want to revert to the (pick your favorite metal) to back credit & $ ...... --104.218.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:11 PM
David...who can argue with such rock solid logic? Certainly not me! P.S. Zillow overvalues my house by 40%, but that is probably not true for everyone.
Salernitana, yes, I was a history minor in college...1 class away from a Major, but decided to forego a double major and graduate on time. Western Civ has always been a fascinating subject for me. I focused mainly on 700 BC up thru 16th Century AD, with focus on Greece, Rome, and the Byzantine Empires. I understand many of the parallels between Rome and the USA as much as a layman who cannot be immersed in the daily new discoveries can. To be clear, I don't know what is going to happen, but if history is to be our teacher then I could see this whole game lasting another 10 - 500 years. There are some who argue Rome would not have fallen if not for the early rounds of the plague coming from Chinese/Mongol empires. Others place the blame at ineffective leadership. Who at the time knew what would be the proverbial final straw that broke Rome's back? If we knew that answer, we could always pull back at the last second. Whether or not we WOULD pull back is a question for philosophers, not historians.
Randy, I don't dispute that we have more stuff now than ever before...but does that change the fact that it could all be our undoing? As Salernitana and I are aware, Roman citizens enjoyed the pinnacle of civilization at one point too. I don't think we'd collapse like a house of cards, but there could be a very painful unwinding in the making. I don't know. No crystal ball here. It is, as I said earlier, "interesting times."
CDM, ditto what I said to Randy. I'm not a fortune teller. I agree it seems impossible for this all to collapse when we are THEE military and economic super power of the world aside from the EU which is a hodge-podge of old world schism under a tentative truce and without the military capacity to defend all of itself without our help. I don't think it will be a disaster per se, but again, a gradual painful unwinding...sort of like Japan's 3 decades of stagflation. I don't know for sure. It's just something I am fascinated by.
All, thank you for participating. I enjoy reading all of your thoughts, even David whom I have to tease on occasion because he and I are long-standing foils to one another on the topic of debt in general. We've met before at the Convention and I bear him no ill will, in spite of my sarcasm and prodding. I hope he feels the same toward me. I certainly don't mind being challenged.
The title of this post is "Nation of Debtors". One can argue about the Pros and Cons, the pluses and minuses, the theories of debt vs. cash economy until doomsday, but the truth still is, "We are a nation of debtors."
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:16 PM
Sid, you try to pass off a statement as fact, when it is false.
You know full well that NET WORTH=ASSETS-DEBT. You only look at the DEBT and ignore ASSETS.
Reminds me of the parable of the thief who was being lashed in public for his crime. A passerby asks him what he stole, to which he answers "a rope." The passerby is outraged that the man is being lashed for stealing a rope. Of course the rope is attached to a cow. --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:17 PM
"Yosemite has no $ value until it is sold." that statement is false. Every landlord and RE investor knows that one virtue of RE is a snail pace compared to stock market. Most RE is not being sold yet it does have determinable value. --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by cjo'h [CT]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:19 PM
Don't want to be any closer than I am now. Charlie................................... --174.199.xx.xxx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Landlord ofthe Flies [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:34 PM
Not to worry, yes, if the US stops paying on the loans, then we will be deadbeats with a devaluing dollar. However, we're deadbeats with nukes, attack subs and aircraft carriers with bombers.
I'd feel sorry for the sheriff knocking on that door to put all our stuff on the curb.
Thought about buying one of those abandoned missile silos to make a safe getaway when society falls, but then it occurred to me that if it's a nuclear missile silo, it's probably being targeted by foreign nukes already so it's probably not a safe place to hide when the world goes nuts. --108.69.xxx.xxx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:35 PM
David. lot of land in west TX that has no value bc no one will buy. nothing has value until it is sold or can be bought. RE has no intrinsic value. --104.218.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:38 PM
Pmh, I saw your reply after mine. Yeah, I have long been the "religious guy" when it comes to debt and I still am. I hope you have noticed that I make most of my remarks on that for one of two reasons: 1) To show why I don't use debt even though it "makes sense" to most other REIs and 2) To encourage others who feel the same. Certainly not trying to "convert" anyone here. Just trying to be an advocate for what has proved to be a valuable strategy.
Btw, how's that $10 million buy-out offering coming? I'm ready to sign...
Charlie, let's be civil. David means well. He's got a different perspective on debt than many here, even the folks who advocate debt-investing. But that's what makes this place interesting. --173.19.xx.xxx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:41 PM
so Sid, we do have something in common. one of my A levels was in History and I enjoy reading up on histories of economics. some here think that gold & silver is the best thing since sliced bread. perhaps they should know about the inflations caused in European counties when gold & silver was imported from the New World....many different causes posited for declines of the Mediterranean empires.. debt isn't one of them.... --104.218.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:48 PM
Sid. I said he could. not that he wants to...me: I have a way to go. lol. --104.218.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 12:55 PM
pmh, nobody wants to buy that land probably because the price they are willing to pay is less than the price the buyer will accept. We have a lot of empty land here , but someone will buy it for $1
And I bet the local assessor has an idea of the worth --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:02 PM
my point exactly. is not sold bc no buyers...unfortunately though here the tax assessor thinks my properties are worth a lot more than I could sell them for...so every year I have to dispute the appraisals....one time a board member challenged me and said would I sell to him for what I said one was worth. I said sure. write me a check. I won that one...tax appraisal does not equal mkt value.... --104.218.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:13 PM
pmh, there ARE people willing to buy them, at a price > $1. Thus there is a value. This is basic economics. --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:13 PM
David: yes. in accounting net worth = asssets less debt...on paper. the problem is when debt is more than assets are worth...the causes of the Great Recession maybe something you should educate yourself on. I don't mean this in a rude way, but best you understand that sometimes you end up with negative net worth...declining asset values and set debt will put you upside down....and us taxpayers are still paying for it...as will my kids kids. It is not debt that is bad. It is how it is used...unfortunately we are paying for the give everyone access to credit even if they can't pay it policies of prior govt ordained policies... --104.218.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:17 PM
Then inside of harping on the DEBT, argue why the assets values will decline. No one bothers doing that.
And please don't patronize me with " I don't mean this in a rude way" you're peeing on my shoes and telling me its raining --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:18 PM
more precisely, the value of the vacant land is somewhere between $1 and the asking price. --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:23 PM
David. Your logic makes no sense. Why a $ ? Who sets that value ? maybe it should be $10, or 50 cents. there is no value unless it is bought. a seller & buyer set the value. You can imagine any value you want, but until it changes hands that land has no value. the analogy is price of gold....it has no intrinsic value either. just the price people will buy it at...I can imagine the value of my home 3 acres at $10m but the reality is a lot less..(unfortunately) RE value is only what it sells for. --104.218.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:27 PM
apologies for peeing on your shoes. that was rude of me. asset values do decline. that is the one reason that triggered the 2008 implosion. --104.218.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by David [MI]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:28 PM
I didn't imagine any value, this is a really simple thought experiment.
The seller will sell this vacant land for some list price, but no one is buying. Simple economics tells us the value is less than the list price.
Now what is the lower bound of the value? It must be at least $1 , because do you really believe no one will buy it for $1?
As for gold, if I try to sell my gold coin for twice the spot price and no one buys, does that mean my gold has no value?
As for your home, you readily admit it has a value without you selling it. --12.156.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by S i d [MO]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:33 PM
Yeah, I'm teasing you on the buyout. It's fun to have a little fun here. But if he ever wants to make the offer...let me know!
Just to be clear: I am not a gold bug, nor a silver bug, nor any kind of "bug". People who think that by using gold and silver for trade we will avoid inflation / current devaluation should read history books. Metal coinage can be inflated / devalued as well, as we saw in the history of every empire that has fallen on hard times, including the USA. Shaved edge and alloy coins are just the start... --173.19.xx.xxx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:39 PM
your gold has no value until you sell it. the fact that the reported price each day changes by the minute sort of proves my point. bear in mind those prices on the exchange are for sellers & buyers at thousands of ounces. your proceeds, if you want to sell at retail level will be a whole lot lower...again. who sets the value. you state a dollar....maybe someone will only buy at 50 cents...the value of my house is only in my mind until I go to mkt and then only worth what I sell it for...for tax appraisal I think it is worth a lot less than what tax man thinks... --104.218.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 1:45 PM
shaved & alloyed coin were the harbingers of decline bc at that time gold & silver were the perceived value. I think US has had alloy coins for a while. It is the credit strength of the US that supports the economy since. not content. however, my concern is the ability of the tax payer to be able to service that credit. no disagreement there. --104.218.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Smokowna [MD]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 3:25 PM
I have a friend who is overwhelmed with all of this debt talk. In essence the friend is filled with hate. This to me means that it isn't the subject of debt itself but underlying problems that the friend has inside.
I say this because after years of hearing about this debt I'm tired of it. I've turned it off. I'm effected by the consequences but only by my fraction...as in one over 320 million.
What I'm saying is there are more pressing problems at hand.
So I urge you all to enjoy the conversation and walk away educated but not offended.
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 3:29 PM
I did offend David. I hope others chime in with their thoughts. this is one site where we can help each other with a different perspective and hopefully no one takes it personal. --166.137.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Chris [CT]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 4:49 PM
A couple points:
Student loan debt averages out to about $30k per student. Sure their are outliers with a lot more and the media loves running stories on them. But lets remember that for every person with $250k in debt working a crap job, their are many with no debt and a paid for education working a great job. Judging by all the cars I see driving around, and various toys I don't think $30k is unreasonable or out of line to invest in ones future.
Secondly social security is properly funded and a tweak in the tax code along with maybe changing the ages a bit will keep it funded for a long time to come. Those numbers are touted by Fox but they are a lie, that's not debt its an unfunded future liability which tax collection in the future will cover. The attack on social security is from companies that dislike paying the match on it.
Thirdly national debt is a bit high, but I assume everyone noticed 2008 and a couple wars in the Middle East we were fighting? That stuff doesn't pay for itself. WW2 was paid for with higher taxes, look up income tax rates in the 50's. But no politician in DC has the balls to throw a 10% income tax rider on everyone for a war they want to fight. If they did they would not be in power for long.
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Livethedream [AZ]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 4:58 PM
Nothing is going to happen but more of the same. Don't guage debt to GDP. Guage debt interest to income.
The govt will just print more money, forever. This isn't Greece. Our debt interest is only like 10% of income, not 100% like Greece, etc.
So spend on. --47.216.xx.xxx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Ed [PA]) Posted on: Aug 21, 2017 4:59 PM
It took me years to get my wife to understand
NET WORTH=ASSETS-DEBT. She was overwhelmed with the debt I had before we married. It took years but she has finally come around and now recognizes the value of the Assets and our net worth greatly outweigh the debt. I agree with David that assets of our nation are being overlooked and the political drumbeat directs attention to such things to gain mass mind control.
I suggest anyone listening to that drumbeat that is upset with the 'horrible plight' our nation is in should just move to China where our 'money' is currently being held. I'm betting you won't be happier. --96.236.xxx.xxx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Vee [OH]) Posted on: Aug 22, 2017 11:32 AM
Some of you have seen this from me before, I blame the entire thing on Cleopatra, she bore children with more than one man then fled Egypt for Alexandria to follow Mark Anthony whom she married and bore children with, she went back and forth with metal coins, before this time there was a well run barter system between nations but her followers chipped the faces from the transported coins which changed forever the value of money. --76.188.xxx.xx
OT: Nation of Debtors (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Posted on: Aug 22, 2017 11:20 PM
Never studied history or econ.
But I expect the same pronciples apply to countries:
-Debtor is slave to the lender.
-He who holds the gold (or the notes) makes the rules.
When China comes a knockin to collect our debt to them...
OT: Nation of Debtors (by Pmh [TX]) Posted on: Aug 23, 2017 2:18 PM
I am just continuously flummoxed by those who state a debtor is a slave to the lender. that is just an emotional feeling by, I think, and am probably right, those who have not paid their debts in the past. To the contrary. I borrow to use for my purposes the money that others have available but I don't. So I borrow and pay 3.75% to a bank to buy a house that nets me 25-35% returns. I use of other persons $ to better my position in life. By no means am I a slave. I am master of my destiny. Re: China. that statement just shows a complete lack of understanding of finance, economics, global trade etc. I am also always flummoxed by those who say "buy only US"...think about it. If we didn't buy from them they wouldn't have the cash to buy from us... --104.218.xxx.xx