My tenant recently moved out. The unit was fairly clean and in pretty good shape--with the exception of dozens of crayon drawings on the walls, presumably made by her 3-year-old daughter. I spent 45 minutes washing off what I could and 3 hours painting over what remained. It is written into the lease that I will charge $40 per hour for all repairs/cleaning that I elect to do myself. My understanding is that this is considered a fair and reasonable fee for landlords in Ohio. I am wondering, though: can I charge my former tenant for the time I spent driving from my home office to the unit and back? I will deduct the mileage from my taxes, of course. But I am wondering if I can charge the tenant for the drive time. Thanks for any advice you can give me!

It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Only the judge can say weather it is OK. So if you do it and the tenant takes it to court whatever the judge says is the way it will go down.

You can do whatever you want...the question is will it stand up in COURT if it comes before a judge?

I don't charge for driving over, but I don't have to because I hire out all of my turn over maintenance and cleaning, so the travel time cost is baked into the price my cleaner or handyman charges me, which I deduct from the Security Deposit. So it's kind of the same thing as if you are charging for your drive time. If you're going to charge, don't list "drive time" as a separate item. Include everything in one: "4.5 hours cleaning & painting at $40/hour."

Btw, I think it is acceptable to charge in case that wasn't clear. Almost every trade technicians I've ever seen (HVAC, plumbing, electrician) has a "service call" fee of $65 - $90 for the first hour, even if it only takes him 5 minutes to fix the issue. Basically, because you do't know how long the issue is going to take so you have to block out time, and your time is being traded for money. If tenant didn't want to pay for someone to have to block off time to drive over and fix their mess, they could've cleaned up themselves.

" can I charge my former tenant for the time I spent driving from my home office to the unit and back? "

NO.

It is a basic principle of law that, while you are permitted to charge for reimbursement of costs due to damage and cleaning, including for your own labor to fulfill those costs, your personal expenses are not reimbursable by the tenant. That means driving expense (gas or mileage), driving time, lunch, dinner, hotel expense if overnight is required, even medical expense if you cut off your finger using a saw. Check your state law. It is probably very specific about what you can deduct from SD, and it will not include your personal expenses.

When I very first started coming to this forum in 2010, I remember talking to Vee in the chat room. It was regarding a deposit return. I can't remember the details, but he said to put the monkey on their back.

Make it their problem.

That helps me a lot.

NE has a good point - put the monkey on their back when doing deposit deductions. If your total damages don't exceed their deposit I would charge drive time as part of their overall damage charge. The chances of them suing you are very slim. If damages exceed their deposit and you are planning to sue them then you need to consider how you are going to make your case to the judge. That doesn't mean I wouldn't charge them but I would want to have planned out ahead how I am going to make that argument.

One thing that helps me "put the monkey on their back" is to also add to the list things I don't charge for.

For example: sweep garage: no charge

Replace 1 mini blind, no charge.

If I'm charging for some things I think they'll balk at, I put things on the list that I absolutely COULD charge for, but write next to it NO CHARGE.

I will be doing this exact thing at the end of this month. Kid wouldn't return the keys. Told me "by law" I have to change the locks between tenants and to take it out of his deposit. I love it when they say I have to do something "by law."

You bet I am and my labor. Sweeping the garage and basement out that was clean before he moved in won't be charged for, but will be added to the itemization list.

In Los Angeles a Landlords time is worthless. When I replaced a tenants broken window (large size on a second floor), the judge would only allow me to deduct the cost of the glass, $20. So the next time a tenant moved out and I needed a window glass replaced, I called a glass company that charged me a service call, ladder fee and the glass replacement -- $150. The same Judge asked me why so much, $150. I tole him that when I wanted to charge another tenant $60, $20 for the glass and $40 for labor, he disallowed me charges for labor as a landlord and even as a licensed contractor.I showed him the paperwork for the other case... He couldn't believe that he ruled against a $60 charge when a pro would charge from $100 to $150......

" contract theory law in EVERY state says that if something is agreed to in a contract, it is binding. "

REALLY?

Robert J:

My properties are in Los Angeles County, the same as yours. The County runs the courts, not the City. So, when I go to court, its the same court that you go to, and I don't have these experiences.

Maybe there is something to how you use the courts. I ALWAYS demand a JUDGE, not a Commissioner or a Judge Pro Tem, or any other kind of temporary judge. The law clearly says (CCC 1950.5) that

" If the landlord or landlord's employee did the work, the itemized statement shall reasonably describe the work performed. The itemized statement shall include the time spent and the reasonable hourly rate charged. If the landlord or landlord's employee did not do the work, the landlord shall provide the tenant a copy of the bill, invoice, or receipt supplied by the person or entity performing the work. The itemized statement shall provide the tenant with the name, address, and telephone number of the person or entity, if the bill, invoice, or receipt does not include that information. "

With a real JUDGE, I have no difficulty to have a deduction for my own labor approved. An experienced judge knows the law (usually backwards & forwards); maybe a judge pro tem is too inexperienced to know this, and needs to be educated. Plus, I don't have any difficulty to reason with an experienced judge, like I sometimes have had to with a temporary judge, who is just a lawyer that doesn't have work.

Maybe you charged what your judicial officer thought was an unreasonably hourly rate. Or he thought that the time spent was not realistic. Or, perhaps you did not provide the statement of hours spent and reasonable hourly rate charged. An experienced judge (faced with an experienced landlord) knows the law, and what things cost. I go to the same court as you do, I could even be the case called right after yours, in front of the same judicial officer (if you, too, insisted on a real judge), and I don't expect to have this difficulty.

Also, if contrary to public policy.

If inequitable.

Inadequate consideration.

Fraud in the inducement.

Others.

Shooting tenants for messiness is not one of the legally accepted criteria for invalidating a lease clause.

But contrariness to law, duress, public policy, inequitable agreement, lack of appropriate consideration, fraud in the inducement ARE among the legally accepted criteria for invalidating a lease clause.

The idea that two parties can agree on ANYTHING that they want to, and it will be automatically binding, is both ill-informed and ignorant.

Your REAL issue is the legal environment of charging for your travel TIME to clean up after a tenant leaves, NOT the issue of how much you charge for doing the clean-up work. In many states (CA included) landlord may charge for his own effort in performing responsibilities that the tenant was required to do, such as cleaning-up after moving. In many of those states (CA included), $40 per hour can be a reasonable amount to deduct.

But that charge is for the cleaning, and not for your travel time. Your responsibility as landlord does not depend on where you live, next door or 30 miles away, your responsibility is the same. Your travel time is a personal expense, like lunch, tools, work clothes. You cannot charge the tenant for calling a tow truck if your car doesn't start. It is a different legal environment than deducting from SD for cleaning.

I haven't any idea what things are like in TX courts.

But, BB is not a tradesman, selling his services for an agreed-upon price. He is deducting an expense as authorized (probably) by state law, namely the expense of cleaning for a tenant that shirked their responsibility. In many older states, that situation is still governed by Property Law, and it is probably not covered under a list of deductions permitted under state Property Law. Even under Contract Law, as many states currently use as criteria, he can recover expense of loss due to tenant default of responsibility, but only to the extent that he has been financially damaged by tenants' default, and subject to the rule that he is required to minimize the loss. No doubt, he had to travel to the site to receive keys and observe that tenant did not clean up. TX state law probably STILL lists allowable deductions, and travel time is not likely to be included.

B.B.

Great question!

I skim past the arguing.

My lease is clear: $265 per room to repaint, extra if priming needed.

$50 per wall to clean crayon or marker.

My lease DOES say "plus mileage" but we usually don't bother.

Charging by the hour raises questions. Flat rates are easy to understand. They won't argue about the crayon marks but they will argue about the travel time.

We do not add for travel time

-I want the bill to look clean and simple

-I don't want to raise an argument over a detail

-The amounts listed in the lease are generous.

-I follow the IRS guideline that "every must travel to and from their job".

Overall, start high. You can always come down.