Pets+vs+Service+Animals

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Pets vs Service Animals (by SteveInIndiana [IN]) Sep 10, 2016 12:13 PM
       (by opm [OR]) Sep 10, 2016 1:00 PM
       (by John... [MI]) Sep 10, 2016 1:47 PM
       (by Barb [MO]) Sep 10, 2016 4:36 PM
       (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Sep 10, 2016 4:55 PM
       (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Sep 10, 2016 4:57 PM
       (by Amy [MO]) Sep 10, 2016 6:01 PM
       (by Lynda [TX]) Sep 10, 2016 6:11 PM
       (by John... [MI]) Sep 10, 2016 6:20 PM
       (by Barb [MO]) Sep 10, 2016 7:50 PM
       (by Vee [OH]) Sep 11, 2016 6:38 AM
       (by cjl [NY]) Sep 11, 2016 8:31 AM
       (by Lynda [TX]) Sep 11, 2016 10:53 AM
       (by John... [MI]) Sep 11, 2016 5:56 PM

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Pets vs Service Animals (by SteveInIndiana [IN]) Sep 10, 2016 12:13 PM
Message:

Tweaking my lease somewhat. I've learned that pet rents cannot be charged for service animals, nor higher deposits.

Suggestions for improvement and/or comments desired:

PETS: There shall be NO PETS PERMITTED at this property; inside and/or out. If a pet; including but not limited to any living creature typically considered a pet; including dogs, cats, fish, reptiles, exotics, insects and so on; is discovered on the property, tenant shall be charged $500 (five hundred dollars) as a pet fee for each pet. Written permission is required – no exceptions. If written permission is granted by Management, the pet fee shall be payable immediately, in full, and is non-refundable. If written permission is NOT GRANTED by management, pet shall be removed immediately by tenant. If pet is not removed immediately, tenant shall be subject to eviction proceedings based on breach of this contract by tenant; and tenant shall be subject to all early termination fees described herein.

SERVICE ANIMALS: Legitimate service animals are not considered pets. Service animal legitimacy must be authentically supported. Official documentation from a licensed physician that clearly indicates that any tenant has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities. Furthermore, similar proof must be provided that indicates that Tenant has a disability-related need for an assistance animal. This documentation must fully answer the following questions: Does the animal work, provide assistance, perform tasks or services for the benefit of the person with the disability, or provide emotional support that alleviates one or more of the identified symptoms or effects of the existing disability. Documentation must be provided by Tenant prior to occupancy of unit.

--184.16.xxx.xx




Pets vs Service Animals (by opm [OR]) Sep 10, 2016 1:00 PM
Message:

Hi Steve

where did the language for the 2nd part come from?

on my agreement it defines pets as 'any non human being'

The things you learn in court --162.247.xx.xx




Pets vs Service Animals (by John... [MI]) Sep 10, 2016 1:47 PM
Message:

You've mixed Emotional Support Animals under your Service Animals entry -- they are NOT the same thing and what you can ask for is different. Therefore, they should not be combined, IMO. If you're going to detail it, then you should detail both.

That being said, I'm not sure it even makes sense to have some of that in the LEASE. I mean, if you're going to require documentation beforehand, then you likely need to give them that information either before or after the application, but long before you'd be signing the lease with them.

I therefore have a document that I give to them after their application indicates that they have a Service Animal or ESA. It wouldn't make sense to me to give them what is required in the LEASE since they would need to provide all of that well before the lease was signed.

- John...

--66.227.xxx.xxx




Pets vs Service Animals (by Barb [MO]) Sep 10, 2016 4:36 PM
Message:

Delete the phrasing regarding the service animals. As John said, you are mixing ESA and SDs.

Legally, the ADA does not allow you to require medical provider documentation for a SD. The Fair Housing Act does allow you to require it for an ESA, however.

If someone states they have a Service Dog, you may ask two questions only:

1) Is the SD required to provide equal access because of a disability. You may instead use the phrasing Is the SD required to mitigate a disability.

2) What tasks has the dog been trained to perform.

Generally a SD is trained to perform at least 3 tasks and they must actually be trained, not just be acting spontaneously acting. The SD may spontaneously act, but how they then behave is a trained behavior.

A seizure alert or diabetic alert dog, for example, may spontaneously act, but what it does next is trained, such as if it pulls on a rope tied to the belt, taps the left knee three times, etc. That is the trained behavior. That is how you can tell a real SD vs a posser.

I've actually had an applicant tell me they had a SD, and when I asked the follow up question regarding the task, could not answer. They said the dog just did it, they just knew what it meant.

--64.251.xxx.xxx




Pets vs Service Animals (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Sep 10, 2016 4:55 PM
Message:

Fellow Hoosier Steve!

Whatever you say can and WILL be used against you. Putting it in print gives the bad people physical evidence to incriminate you.

You could be sued for having the second part in your lease.

This crowd is deadly serious about taking down landlords.

Barb is right on about the only 2 queations we are allowed to ask.

( I can't believe I just typed that last line! In our free-speech America we are limited to two questions that are already written out for us by the government! )

Me? I let the applicant tell me what they want to tell me and I listen. I don't think I can be sued for listening. Then I let them put in print whatever they want to put in print.

This whole emotional support animal problem is new and only recently become an issue with landlords. I believe the dust has not settled yet. We signed an average of 50 leases per year in this issue has only popped up once over the last few years.

My lease refers to animals not using the word pets.

I just read a statistic from a national apartment association stating that 72% of renters already have a pet, and 15% more would like to ad I just read a statistic from a national apartment association stating that 72% of renters already have a pet, and 15% more would like to get a pet

I wish the disabled community would get up in arms and come up with a way to define this better to halt all those people who are scamming the system. The cheaters are making it harder on the people who have legitimate service animals. --73.146.xxx.xxx




Pets vs Service Animals (by BRAD 20,000 [IN]) Sep 10, 2016 4:57 PM
Message:

Ps here's a better explanation:

I let them disclose any and all information in writing on the application. If they make no mention of an ESA I can defend my actions by saying I was not informed by the resident or the resident lied on the application.

BRAD --73.146.xxx.xxx




Pets vs Service Animals (by Amy [MO]) Sep 10, 2016 6:01 PM
Message:

Like most, I'd leave the second part out. No need to educate the tenant on the loopholes to having an animal in your rental. --65.31.xxx.x




Pets vs Service Animals (by Lynda [TX]) Sep 10, 2016 6:11 PM
Message:

Steve I almost never comment on this subject 1) because I get hot on the subject and 2) John MI covers it acurately and 3) because I solve the problem by allowing pets. But one difference I see between a service animal and an emotional support animal is:

a service animal is TRAINED to perform a service for blind or deaf or confined to wheel chair,etc. A service animal has a certificate of training. Along with that training, the dog received training in good behavior as well, so it will not have inside accidents or loud barking etc.

an emotional support animal, while it may indeed give a needy person emotional support--it is not trained for anything. It has no special behavior and often no good behavior either. I had one dog used by the tenant because she was afraid to go out into the world (food or clothing shopping, library, church, even from house to streetside mailbox) without this dog to give her courage. I thought how aweful to be so crippled, to have your home be a prison. But this dog barked and scratched and dug holes in the lawn--very badly behaved. She paid $300 pet fee and I used it. --108.87.xx.xxx




Pets vs Service Animals (by John... [MI]) Sep 10, 2016 6:20 PM
Message:

Just to be safe since people will read this that don't know any better: You may not ask for any "certificate of training" for a Service Animal. The questions you can ask have been explained above. Asking for a certificate is not one of the ones allowed.

Just wanted to be clear on that in case someone misunderstood Lynda there. :)

Also, in her second example, we're going to assume that that dog was not reported to Lynda as an ESA -- since, if it was, she would not have been able to charge a pet fee.

:)

- John...

--66.227.xxx.xxx




Pets vs Service Animals (by Barb [MO]) Sep 10, 2016 7:50 PM
Message:

The hard part about a claim of a service dog is that once you ask the two questions I list above, and get the reply that states, (1) yes, the dog is necessary because of a disability (to which no proof can be requested) and (2) these are the tasks the dog performs, you must simply accept the individual at their word.

You can always let them ramble on. If asked, I'm happy to explain the training we are doing with mine, what he does for me, the ADI standards and how we train to meet them, etc. I am happy to share the info on the trainer, the Public Access Test we are training for (but that is not legally required or even recognized by anyone or any agency).

Legally, however, I am allowed to train my own dog, and once I am satisfied he is ready, I can put a vest on him and take him into public. It is scary.

What I would do as a property owner is either look for other reasons to deny the prospect or make frequent inspections (the dog means we need to change the HVAC filter once a month) and we always check the smoke detectors and under every sink and toilet while there. If you find any damage, bill immediately. If there IS damage, then the dog is not well trained and under the ADA you can then document and charge a deposit against future damage. If futher damage occurs, or the dog barks excessively and you receive complaints, document these as well to prepare a case to send a cure or quit notice. If the dog is not well controlled, the poops aren't picked up and disposed of correctly and daily, and damage occurs, the dog is not properly trained and cared for and is subject to cure or quit.

BTW, a properly trained SD is trained to eliminate on command. We practice this constantly. We are currently learning to eliminate in a box of mulch - in a specific place. Something to consider. --64.251.xxx.xxx




Pets vs Service Animals (by Vee [OH]) Sep 11, 2016 6:38 AM
Message:

I would thin it out that pets require photo vet records and any animal observed on the property will be charged retroactive to movein animal registration and the cost of pet rent until proven otherwise, this means no pet sitting (if you love the pet you will go pet sit in the environment they call home), if they have the paperwork for the medical mutt then you have to allow but still enforce the critter cleanup and damage costs the same as any other. --76.188.xxx.xxx




Pets vs Service Animals (by cjl [NY]) Sep 11, 2016 8:31 AM
Message:

I wouldn't put in writing that you would allow Service or Emotional Support animals or define what they are in your "opinion". The reason being is that if the "laws/rules" change - then your lease goes out the window. Also - as Brad says "what you state can and will be used against you"... Be careful.

Case in point is I USE to put in the "military" clause (years back). I took it out as I had one person try to use it (wasn't in the military AT ALL) ... I quickly learned that if you give them the idea - they will try to use it.

Just "know" what you can or cannot do and if you DON'T know - when it comes up - ASK about it! --69.201.xx.xxx




Pets vs Service Animals (by Lynda [TX]) Sep 11, 2016 10:53 AM
Message:

John/MI(and others) back in 2008 when I had this tenant there was very little info on emotional support animals. A dog that was not able to produce any kind of training certificte was not condidered to be exempt from the pet fee. Obviously this pet DID give her emotional support but it was still considered a pet. She had no problem with paying it, as she knew it was coming. But for all its specialty to HER, it was still a badly behaved dog that needed that pet fee to be used. Most emotionals support animals are the same--loved by those who need them but also badly behaved. On the other hand the pets I allow in my rentals are considered pets by their owmers and everyone else, and they are for the most part very well behaved. I have little to NO problem with any of the pets I allow. --108.87.xx.xxx




Pets vs Service Animals (by John... [MI]) Sep 11, 2016 5:56 PM
Message:

While it may have been treated that way, the law was the same in 2008. So, even then, no training certificate could be required. (If she had a doctor's note, for example, then that was all that was needed -- training has NEVER been a requirement for ESAs.) As you said, less info was readily available -- but the law and requirements were the same. They just weren't as well known. :)

But, to be clear, yes, you can still charge for any damages just like you would any other damage. And, if they violate normal rules (i.e. barking excessively and so on), you can still evict for it -- regardless of if it was an ESA or even a Service Animal.

In any case, you are absolutely right. The problem with the types of people that cheat the rules to get in an "ESA" is that they often poor pet owners. Most of us would be much better off with a well behaved PET than the average ESA. :(

- John...

--66.227.xxx.xxx



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